are the submarines in the book of mormon just a bit much to believe..

[bbbbbbb]

.....errrrmmmmmm....so then, thinking through this...they didn't have the technology that we have today back then...so it is reasonable to make the statement that they weren't airtight and therefore not the same as our submarines.

Gotcha!

You seem to fail to understand that these are mythical vessels where anything was possible. For example, these vessels were propelled mysteriously through (or on, as the case may be) the ocean from Europe to the Americas without any sails or other means of natural propulsion. Thus, it behooves one to accept that if that miracle did occur, it was no problem for God to have them construct truly airtight vessels.

 

[Ran77]

You seem to fail to understand that these are mythical vessels where anything was possible. For example, these vessels were propelled mysteriously through (or on, as the case may be) the ocean from Europe to the Americas without any sails or other means of natural propulsion. Thus, it behooves one to accept that if that miracle did occur, it was no problem for God to have them construct truly airtight vessels.

If ocean currents are a mystery to you then no wonder you are having problems with this topic.


:o

 

[southcountry]

When was the book of Mormon written? Some time in the middle 19th century, right? That being so doesn't it seem likely that Joseph Smith could have known about submarines, after all the first successful submarine was built in 1620 by Cornelius Jacobszoon Drebbel, a Dutchman in the service of James I of England - it may have been based on Bourne's design. It was propelled by oars and is thought to have incorporated floats with tubes to allow air down to the rowers. And experimental submarines were built during the 19th century, and they were adopted by several navies. So it seems probable that the book of Mormon was keeping pace with the 'science' of its day. It is notable that digital computers, lasers, and the large hadron collider are not presaged in the book of Mormon.

Robert Fulton also built the sub Nautilus I think in 1807.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If ocean currents are a mystery to you then no wonder you are having problems with this topic.


:o

No, they are not. I posted an accurate map of ocean currents in the North Atlantic Ocean, which clearly show that the Gulf Stream current flows from the west to the east, making it virtually impossible for anything to float naturally from Europe to America. Was there something about the map that you did not comprehend?

 

[MormonFriend]

No, they are not. I posted an accurate map of ocean currents in the North Atlantic Ocean, which clearly show that the Gulf Stream current flows from the west to the east, making it virtually impossible for anything to float naturally from Europe to America. Was there something about the map that you did not comprehend?

And do you not recall I answered your map, telling you those were currents in normal conditions? (post #61) If you will read the account again, you will see that God informed them that He would cause the winds to blow and direct them? Can you recall any other circumstances where God altered the natural state of nature to bring forth His will?

 

[Ran77]

No, they are not. I posted an accurate map of ocean currents in the North Atlantic Ocean, which clearly show that the Gulf Stream current flows from the west to the east, making it virtually impossible for anything to float naturally from Europe to America. Was there something about the map that you did not comprehend?

Only how you interpret the arrows that point south towards Africa and then west towards South America somehow as an indication that the currents would not take them to where we believe them to have been.


:o

 

[joneysd]

does anyone know any information on the doors in to these ocean going vessels??

 

[MormonFriend]

does anyone know any information on the doors in to these ocean going vessels??

The story is about building and strengthening faith, not vessels. So the emphasis is on faith, not on details of the physical things.

 

[joneysd]

The story is about building and strengthening faith, not vessels. So the emphasis is on faith, not on details of the physical things.

so no door then...

 

[bbbbbbb]

so no door then...

I suppose the top hole would have probably served the purpose, although that would have required ladders. I am not so sure that livestock would have done very well on ladders.

 

[joneysd]

I suppose the top hole would have probably served the purpose, although that would have required ladders. I am not so sure that livestock would have done very well on ladders.

if the holes are doors, how come the builders did not think, "how are we going to get in to these things"....

 

[bbbbbbb]

if the holes are doors, how come the builders did not think, "how are we going to get in to these things"....

The builders were getting their directions from God, according to the text. It does make you wonder, though.

 

[joneysd]

The builders were getting their directions from God, according to the text. It does make you wonder, though.

just a lot...

 

[Ran77]

I have found this thread very interesting. I had not realized the lengths that our critics would go, on such weak arguments, in order to find fault with the LDS. I am quite staggered at the effort so far. And saddened.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have found this thread very interesting. I had not realized the lengths that our critics would go, on such weak arguments, in order to find fault with the LDS. I am quite staggered at the effort so far. And saddened.

Yes, we have come a long way, haven't we? It just seems like yesterday we were discussing actual, genuine theological dissonances such as the vastly different natures of the LDS God and the orthodox Christian God. How far we have fallen to stoop to things such as historical dissonances in the BoM.

 

[Ran77]

Yes, we have come a long way, haven't we? It just seems like yesterday we were discussing actual, genuine theological dissonances such as the vastly different natures of the LDS God and the orthodox Christian God. How far we have fallen to stoop to things such as historical dissonances in the BoM.

There is nothing historic about your posts. And they have basically nothing to do with what the LDS actually believe. There is a lot of fabrication and stretching what is there into something it is not. In other words, a lot of dealing with something that you have made up rather than something that comes from us and is a part of what we are. If you want to term that "stooping" then I would have to agree with you, but that is your term and not mine.

 

[joneysd]

Yes, we have come a long way, haven't we? It just seems like yesterday we were discussing actual, genuine theological dissonances such as the vastly different natures of the LDS God and the orthodox Christian God. How far we have fallen to stoop to things such as historical dissonances in the BoM.

I think that it the bom's claim of being the most correct book struggles when investigated either against biblical scripture, Historically, geographically, archaeologically, even against its own history, even against its own so called prophets and seers it ha serious problems..

if it cannot stand on its own basic alleged facts such as its people, places, alleged truths, alleged prophets, alleged prophecies, alleged livestock, alleged crops, alleged inventions what are we relying on to uphold its claims as truth or in any way correct..

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is nothing historic about your posts. And they have basically nothing to do with what the LDS actually believe. There is a lot of fabrication and stretching what is there into something it is not. In other words, a lot of dealing with something that you have made up rather than something that comes from us and is a part of what we are. If you want to term that "stooping" then I would have to agree with you, but that is your term and not mine.

Is there a particular problem you have with this text, which definitely is historic?

the actual text from Ether 2:16-25

16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water. 17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.
18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.
19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.
20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.
21 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.
22 And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?
23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.
24 For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth.
25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?

 

[joneysd]

Is there a particular problem you have with this text, which definitely is historic?

the actual text from Ether 2:16-25

16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water. 17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.
18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.
19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.
20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.
21 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.
22 And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?
23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.
24 For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth.
25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?

so no mention of a door then, how odd...

 

[MormonFriend]

so no mention of a door then, how odd...

I think this discussion qualifies as straining at a gnat, and swallowing a camel.


17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.