are the submarines in the book of mormon just a bit much to believe..

[Der Alte]

Go back and read what it says...
It doesn't fit either "modern" understanding of a barge or a boat. Once again, you guys are guilty of the Fallacy of Presentism.
However it more closely does resemble a barge than a submarine. The fact that it says it was light upon the waters means that you could not even call it a submersible, for it would be impossible for it to remain under water.
Unless it had ballast tanks and propulsion system; however the was no propulsion as was noted in the Book of Mormon, nor was there any mention of ballast tanks either.

It seems you guys are always trying to skew things to fit your sensationalism agenda, by playing lose with the facts... The reality is a lot more boring.

What's funny though is that by wasting all your time making stuff up, you missed the far more unlikely aspect of the story... "The rocks the glowed"

Seems you guys just can't seem to win one.

Ether 2:24 For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth.
25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?​

"up again out of the depths of the sea""swallowed up in the depths of the sea" sounds like a submersible boat to me. Wait, let me guess, this is SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative.

 

[joneysd]

I am stating that our critics misrepresent the information. In this case, why don't you show us where it states anywhere that submarines were built. The choice to use that word instead of "barges" is a prime example of how our critics focus on their faulty interpretation of what is written rather than what it actually states.




I just explained above. A person, in this case you and bbbbbbb, take a direct quote that mentions barges and for purposes of their agenda substitutes the word submarine for it. Then they focus on how ridiculous it is to have submarines. The problem being that they are the one who have creatively, rather than factually, dubbed these barges as submarines.

This is commonly known as a straw man.




Again, you apply the creative reasoning that took you from barges to submarines in order to suggest a motive for my objections rather than the obvious answer; which is that I am objecting to your misrepresentation of the topic.

ha ha ha they were built to go underwater, they gave them holes top and bottom in case they were either way up and needed air, how many barges do you know that were built with holes in the bottom and the top...

but of course it is easier to argue semantics rather than admit it was talking about an invention that was seen the time the book was written....

 

[Theway]

Ether 2:24 For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth.
25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?​

"up again out of the depths of the sea""swallowed up in the depths of the sea" sounds like a submersible boat to me. Wait, let me guess, this is SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative.

You are trying too hard... Go back and actually read the parts that don't support your argument.
They are in the depths of the sea when waves swallow them up... Here in California my surfboard is light upon the water, however it is always being swallowed up by the waves, yet I know it won't be but a second before it's on top again. There is nothing in what you have stated from the BOM that says it is to remain under water for time. In fact, it clearly states that after the wave comes the boat shall be brought up.

 

[joneysd]

You are trying too hard... Go back and actually read the parts that don't support your argument.
They are in the depths of the sea when waves swallow them up... Here in California my surfboard is light upon the water, however it is always being swallowed up by the waves, yet I know it won't be but a second before it's on top again. There is nothing in what you have stated from the BOM that says it is to remain under water for time. In fact, it clearly states that after the wave comes the boat shall be brought up.

tell me again why it needs to be air tight, and why it would need a hole for air at the top and bottom or even at all if it was just a barge...

 

[Theway]

tell me again why it needs to be air tight,

Really???

I thought that went without saying.... In modern terms it's known as "Battening down the hatches", in rough weather the crew will close and seal the hatches to be water tight, or in this case air-tight so that a wave coming over the ship will not swamp and sink it.

and why it would need a hole for air at the top...

Really??? Are you seriously asking why people and animals would need air?

...and bottom or even at all if it was just a barge...

Oh.. I could think of a couple of good reasons. In fact concept goes all the way back to the forth century BC when it was called a diving bell.

It's apparent that your imagination doesn't go beyond inventing the story of a "submarine" out of thin air.

 

[joneysd]

Really???

I thought that went without saying.... In modern terms it's known as "Battening down the hatches", in rough weather the crew will close and seal the hatches to be water tight, or in this case air-tight so that a wave coming over the ship will not swamp and sink it.

Really??? Are you seriously asking why people and animals would need air?

Oh.. I could think of a couple of good reasons. In fact concept goes all the way back to the forth century BC when it was called a diving bell.

It's apparent that your imagination doesn't go beyond inventing the story of a "submarine" out of thin air.

so you think many barges are air tight...lol

people in barges don't need air hatches ...lol

how many boats of any description in biblical days do you think were air tight..lol

lol i think i will leave the stories out of thin air to smith he seems to do it best...lol

 

[Ran77]

ha ha ha they were built to go underwater . . .

The actual text indicates that they were built to travel on top of the water.

. . .they gave them holes top and bottom in case they were either way up and needed air, how many barges do you know that were built with holes in the bottom and the top...

Having air holes doesn't make them submarines. What is described are hatches that can be closed during storms; thus preventing them from taking on water and sinking.

, , , but of course it is easier to argue semantics rather than admit it was talking about an invention that was seen the time the book was written....

If by semantics you mean reading what is actually written, then you are correct.

 

[Ran77]

Really???

I thought that went without saying.... In modern terms it's known as "Battening down the hatches", in rough weather the crew will close and seal the hatches to be water tight, or in this case air-tight so that a wave coming over the ship will not swamp and sink it.

You know, it seems like a pretty simple concept to me.


:o

 

[bbbbbbb]

Go back and read what it says...
It doesn't fit either "modern" understanding of a barge or a boat. Once again, you guys are guilty of the Fallacy of Presentism.
However it more closely does resemble a barge than a submarine. The fact that it says it was light upon the waters means that you could not even call it a submersible, for it would be impossible for it to remain under water.
Unless it had ballast tanks and propulsion system; however the was no propulsion as was noted in the Book of Mormon, nor was there any mention of ballast tanks either.

It seems you guys are always trying to skew things to fit your sensationalism agenda, by playing lose with the facts... The reality is a lot more boring.

What's funny though is that by wasting all your time making stuff up, you missed the far more unlikely aspect of the story... "The rocks the glowed"

Seems you guys just can't seem to win one.

Let me see if I understand the matter at hand. God told these folks to construct absolutely watertight boats which had no means of propulsion nor any ballast tanks, but could go underwater because they were completely water (and air) tight. However, the air issue did concern God so that he told them to have two holes in these craft so they could open them and get some nice fresh air from the water, all the while avoiding sinking because the water would not enter the holes.

So, do you have any idea how anyone would have crossed the Atlantic Ocean in such boats and lived to tell about it?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am stating that our critics misrepresent the information. In this case, why don't you show us where it states anywhere that submarines were built. The choice to use that word instead of "barges" is a prime example of how our critics focus on their faulty interpretation of what is written rather than what it actually states.

I just explained above. A person, in this case you and bbbbbbb, take a direct quote that mentions barges and for purposes of their agenda substitutes the word submarine for it. Then they focus on how ridiculous it is to have submarines. The problem being that they are the one who have creatively, rather than factually, dubbed these barges as submarines.

This is commonly known as a straw man.

Again, you apply the creative reasoning that took you from barges to submarines in order to suggest a motive for my objections rather than the obvious answer; which is that I am objecting to your misrepresentation of the topic.

Would you actually call these constructions "barges"? They were certainly not barges in any real sense of that word.

 

[joneysd]

You know, it seems like a pretty simple concept to me.


:o

yeah, i mean how many barges of that day didn't batten down the hatches to make it airtight when the waves got high....

 

[Theway]

Let me see if I understand the matter at hand. God told these folks to construct absolutely watertight boats which had no means of propulsion nor any ballast tanks, but could go underwater because they were completely water (and air) tight. However, the air issue did concern God so that he told them to have two holes in these craft so they could open them and get some nice fresh air from the water, all the while avoiding sinking because the water would not enter the holes.

So, do you have any idea how anyone would have crossed the Atlantic Ocean in such boats and lived to tell about it?

I think you need to go back and read what the Book of Mormon actually says because you stated several conditions that were not even in the Book of Mormon.

 

[joneysd]

Let me see if I understand the matter at hand. God told these folks to construct absolutely watertight boats which had no means of propulsion nor any ballast tanks, but could go underwater because they were completely water (and air) tight. However, the air issue did concern God so that he told them to have two holes in these craft so they could open them and get some nice fresh air from the water, all the while avoiding sinking because the water would not enter the holes.

So, do you have any idea how anyone would have crossed the Atlantic Ocean in such boats and lived to tell about it?

haven't you seen the great greek and reformed egyptian boats of that time, they always went under water and were completely air tight, those huge sails , open decks and oars were just for show...

 

[Theway]

haven't you seen the great greek and reformed egyptian boats of that time, they always went under water and were completely air tight, those huge sails , open decks and oars were just for show...

The Book of Mormon clearly states that it was The Lord who instructed them how to build it, and that He would send a strong wind to push it along....

What's your reasoning here? Are you telling us that if man can not build it, then surely God can not do it?
And are you also saying that God can not command the winds?

Did I read you right?

FYI, the Greeks and Egyptians were not even around yet at the time of the Jaredites.
Perhaps you should understand first what it is you claim to be able to criticize. You are embarrassing yourself.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think you need to go back and read what the Book of Mormon actually says because you stated several conditions that were not even in the Book of Mormon.

Actually, it is the book of Ether (which, of course, is included as one of the books within the BoM). Here is the text to refresh our mutual memories -


16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water. 17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.
18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.
19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.
20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.
21 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.
22 And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?
23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.
24 For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth.
25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?

We see here that the "barges" are compared to a whale in the midst of the sea (vs. 24). The last time I checked, whales don't simply lazily float on top of the water like a barge and, in this case, get pushed along by the wind, without any sails. Rather, they swim to great depths - depths, in fact, which would squash any wooden vessel.

As for the two holes, it is said to open the hole to get air, but if the water happens to come in, which, of course, it would, then they should close the hole again. By that time any ship would have flooded and capsized as it is virtually impossible to stop the pressure of the water.

Essentially, what we see here are wooden vessels which travel underwater like a whale, but without any means of propulsion. The only possible means would be natural ocean currents, which are not mentioned as a possibility. The currents in the Atlantic Ocean are not conducive to moving objects in the straight line from Europe to the Americas.

 

[Ran77]

Essentially, what we see here are wooden vessels which travel underwater like a whale, but without any means of propulsion. The only possible means would be natural ocean currents, which are not mentioned as a possibility. The currents in the Atlantic Ocean are not conducive to moving objects in the straight line from Europe to the Americas.
[/COLOR]

Only in your imagination. If the hatches are for the purpose of stopping water on those occasions when it comes into the barges, then it is obvious that they are meant to be on top of the water like a regular boat. It specifies storms as the reason for some of the construction features.

Get real.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Only in your imagination. If the hatches are for the purpose of stopping water on those occasions when it comes into the barges, then it is obvious that they are meant to be on top of the water like a regular boat. It specifies storms as the reason for some of the construction features.

Get real.

I suggest you take your own advice. If these vessels were to operate like whales, as the text states, then they would not be merely floating on the water.

Do you have any idea why one would want a hole in the bottom of a barge?

 

[joneysd]

The Book of Mormon clearly states that it was The Lord who instructed them how to build it, and that He would send a strong wind to push it along....

What's your reasoning here? Are you telling us that if man can not build it, then surely God can not do it?
And are you also saying that God can not command the winds?

Did I read you right?

FYI, the Greeks and Egyptians were not even around yet at the time of the Jaredites.
Perhaps you should understand first what it is you claim to be able to criticize. You are embarrassing yourself.

so your argument is no one had even built boats but God told them how to build an air tight submarine, well that's quite an argument...

i suppose it would be too much to expect any external proof that these boats were ever planned, used, lost or remade, along with the skills the builders would have acquired...

 

[Ran77]

I suggest you take your own advice. If these vessels were to operate like whales, as the text states, then they would not be merely floating on the water.

Do you have any idea why one would want a hole in the bottom of a barge?

It doesn't state that they operate like whales. That is your creative spin on an analogy. Seeing how the analogy is being focused on and then distorted so that it doesn't fit with the rest of the text on the topic, I'm glad I don't rely on you for my understanding of the Bible. I can only imagine what a person would do with the Bible if they took this approach. Maybe I should give that a try.

 

[Ran77]

With the idea of taking an analogy to a ridiculous extreme allow me to offer that since Jesus refers to us as His sheep that the Bible is really indicating that we should gather to be shorn each year and then spend the rest of our time eating grass. And we should adopt a language that consists of bleating sounds.

Or that perhaps Jesus has no plan to save actual people, only sheep. The four-legged kind with white fluffy wool. That the Bible is meant to be read out loud to sheep so that they can appreciate the work that has gone in to saving them.


:o