are the submarines in the book of mormon just a bit much to believe..

[MormonFriend]

All this is well and nice, but the text does not mention any of this. What it does say is that the holes are for air for the inhabitants of these air-tight vessels. The holes (not hatches in the modern sense) are to be opened to provide air for the people.

On to another issue which you raised. You state (and I think correctly) "They are 100% dependent on wind and water current for travel." Given the fact that there are no sails for these barges nor anything which would permit the wind to push them in any significant manner, they would depend on ocean currents for movement. There are no currents which could take said barges from Europe to America. Here is a map of the North Atlantic currents.

As you can see the primary current is the Gulf Stream and it goes east from the Carribean to the north Atlantic. The secondary currents are quite weak.

Those are under normal conditions. It would take great faith and submission to step aboard. Faith was tested and tried in many ways. And it still is

 

[bbbbbbb]

No it's not a submarine and I really doubt it was completely air tight. It was an enclosed boat that was tight enough to survive a temporary plunge beneath the stormy seas. At least that's how I've imagined it.

Here is the actual text from Ether 2:16-25

16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water. 17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.
18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.
19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.
20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.
21 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.
22 And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?
23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.
24 For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth.
25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?

Verse 17 describes them several times as being "tight like unto a dish". That must be quite tight, because no light could enter, which posed its own set of problems. Then, verse 20 also emphatically describes them as being completely air tight except for the holes, top and bottom, to admit air when needed.

 

[MormonFriend]

Here is the actual text from Ether 2:16-25

16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water. 17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.
18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.
19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.
20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.
21 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.
22 And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?
23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.
24 For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth.
25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?

Verse 17 describes them several times as being "tight like unto a dish". That must be quite tight, because no light could enter, which posed its own set of problems. Then, verse 20 also emphatically describes them as being completely air tight except for the holes, top and bottom, to admit air when needed.

what is the discrepancy? They were tight enough to serve their purpose. Tight enough that the oxygen levels would deplete and they would need to replenish the air. They could not be air tight by the standards we have today with hermetically sealed metals.

 

[Theway]

Here is the actual text from Ether 2:16-25

Verse 17 describes them several times as being "tight like unto a dish". That must be quite tight, because no light could enter, which posed its own set of problems. Then, verse 20 also emphatically describes them as being completely air tight except for the holes, top and bottom, to admit air when needed.

And???
Apart from it being airtight, how does that describe a "submarine"?

 

[joneysd]

And???
Apart from it being airtight, how does that describe a "submarine"?

how many barges or ships have you seen that are airtight, still don't know how they built them and never thought about needing air...

 

[bbbbbbb]

what is the discrepancy? They were tight enough to serve their purpose. Tight enough that the oxygen levels would deplete and they would need to replenish the air. They could not be air tight by the standards we have today with hermetically sealed metals.

Thank you for responding for Cassiopeia. It was she who said "No it's not a submarine and I really doubt it was completely air tight. It was an enclosed boat that was tight enough to survive a temporary plunge beneath the stormy seas. At least that's how I've imagined it."

I merely pointed out that it was so tight that the inhabitants would have been asphyxiated had it not been for the two holes. That is, assuredly, "air tight".

 

[bbbbbbb]

And???
Apart from it being airtight, how does that describe a "submarine"?

I am pleased that you agree with me that they were airtight, unlike MormonFriend, who seems to think they were not airtight, at least by current standards.

As I noted in my previous post, I was responding to Cassiopeia's opinion that the vessels were not airtight. Thus far, we have two LDS posters who deny the direct statement in the book of Ether regarding the airtightness of the vessels and one (yourself) who affirms it.

In any case, the actions of the vessels are compared to those of a whale. A whale is not subject to momentary wave actions which merely washes over it, but it plunges to great depths for extended periods of time. Depending on the whales species whales have been known to hold their breath anywhere from 5 minutes up all the way up to 90 minutes during deep dives.

 

[MoreCoffee]

come on who could have built a submarine in that era....

When was the book of Mormon written? Some time in the middle 19th century, right? That being so doesn't it seem likely that Joseph Smith could have known about submarines, after all the first successful submarine was built in 1620 by Cornelius Jacobszoon Drebbel, a Dutchman in the service of James I of England - it may have been based on Bourne's design. It was propelled by oars and is thought to have incorporated floats with tubes to allow air down to the rowers. And experimental submarines were built during the 19th century, and they were adopted by several navies. So it seems probable that the book of Mormon was keeping pace with the 'science' of its day. It is notable that digital computers, lasers, and the large hadron collider are not presaged in the book of Mormon.

 

[bbbbbbb]

When was the book of Mormon written? Some time in the middle 19th century, right? That being so doesn't it seem likely that Joseph Smith could have known about submarines, after all the first successful submarine was built in 1620 by Cornelius Jacobszoon Drebbel, a Dutchman in the service of James I of England - it may have been based on Bourne's design. It was propelled by oars and is thought to have incorporated floats with tubes to allow air down to the rowers. And experimental submarines were built during the 19th century, and they were adopted by several navies. So it seems probable that the book of Mormon was keeping pace with the 'science' of its day. It is notable that digital computers, lasers, and the large hadron collider are not presaged in the book of Mormon.

Quite true. The puzzling thing here is that Mr. Smith's description of these vessels indicates only the most rudimentary understanding of submarine technology as it existed in his day. One would have expected better if he sincerely wished to pass off his description as being the real deal. Hence, we have the efforts of latter-day Mormons to deny that these were actually intended to function beneath the water as submersible vessels (aka submarines).

If these were not submarines, they were assuredy most incapable of any viable nautical usage, lacking both propulsion and steering. They were no more effective than the famous corked bottle thrown into the ocean.

 

[MormonFriend]

Thank you for responding for Cassiopeia. ...

But I didn't.

I merely pointed out that it was so tight that the inhabitants would have been asphyxiated had it not been for the two holes. That is, assuredly, "air tight".

My comments agreed with that.

 

[MormonFriend]

I am pleased that you agree with me that they were airtight, unlike MormonFriend, who seems to think they were not airtight, at least by current standards. ...

That does not make sense. I am saying that to the people of that day, who wrote it, they were as "air tight" as they could be by their standards. They did not know any means to make it more "air tight". To them it was 100% air tight.

... As I noted in my previous post, I was responding to Cassiopeia's opinion that the vessels were not airtight. Thus far, we have two LDS posters who deny the direct statement in the book of Ether regarding the airtightness of the vessels and one (yourself) who affirms it. ...

Why do you treat us this way in misrepresentation?

In any case, the actions of the vessels are compared to those of a whale. A whale is not subject to momentary wave actions which merely washes over it, but it plunges to great depths for extended periods of time. Depending on the whales species whales have been known to hold their breath anywhere from 5 minutes up all the way up to 90 minutes during deep dives.

I am surprised you do not discredit the story because the barges do not spout off moisture when they surface. It is quite clear to an honest reader that the comparison of a whale is that it submerges and surfaces. Jacques Cousteau was not around back then to enlighten them of anything more than that.

And by the way, a barge does not have to be a flat bottomed vessel.

 

[joneysd]

That does not make sense. I am saying that to the people of that day, who wrote it, they were as "air tight" as they could be by their standards. They did not know any means to make it more "air tight". To them it was 100% air tight.

Why do you treat us this way in misrepresentation?

I am surprised you do not discredit the story because the barges do not spout off moisture when they surface. It is quite clear to an honest reader that the comparison of a whale is that it submerges and surfaces. Jacques Cousteau was not around back then to enlighten them of anything more than that.

And by the way, a barge does not have to be a flat bottomed vessel.

your statement seems a little odd, it does not say airtight to the best of their ability to that day, it says airtight and takes it to the point of they will suffocate if they do not build holes in to it, exactly how they got in to them before the holes for air were made is a bit of a mystery but I guess that is another story..

the glowing stones on them are odd as well what is the point of light to steer by if no one can actually see out to steer..

 

[MormonFriend]

... exactly how they got in to them before the holes for air were made is a bit of a mystery but I guess that is another story..

I guess it simply illustrates that you do not read all, or do not comprehend what you read.

 

[joneysd]

I guess it simply illustrates that you do not read all, or do not comprehend what you read.

so does it mention an airtight door...

 

[bbbbbbb]

That does not make sense. I am saying that to the people of that day, who wrote it, they were as "air tight" as they could be by their standards. They did not know any means to make it more "air tight". To them it was 100% air tight.

Why do you treat us this way in misrepresentation?

I am surprised you do not discredit the story because the barges do not spout off moisture when they surface. It is quite clear to an honest reader that the comparison of a whale is that it submerges and surfaces. Jacques Cousteau was not around back then to enlighten them of anything more than that.

And by the way, a barge does not have to be a flat bottomed vessel.

Okay, now we have two LDS posters who believe the vessels were airtight. I apologize for my misunderstanding of your post.

Where did I ever say that the vessels (called barges in the text) were flat-bottomed vessels?

 

[Cassiopeia]

Seriously? This thread is still going? Is there such a thing as airtight even today? Or do we get as close to air tight as we can and just use the description as airtight for "as close as we can get to airtight"?

I find it hard to believe that the idea of airtight back when the Book of Mormon was written is the same as it is today. If it was airtight wouldn't they eventually suffocate as the oxygen would be consumed and what about carbon monoxide levels?

And as I've already stated, I don't believe the bible is literal in its stories either.

But do we really hinge our faith on these stories? I dunno...guys, your arguments don't serve to persuade me to leave the LDS church and you don't persuade me to remain. Rather your arguments point out how crazy anyone is to believe in ANY religious organizations.

Your contentions and mocking of each other just make me cringe because I'm quite certain that if Christ were to enter into the discussion he'd remind us how silly such debates are and that simple faith in him is all that is requisite.

 

[joneysd]

Seriously? This thread is still going? Is there such a thing as airtight even today? Or do we get as close to air tight as we can and just use the description as airtight for "as close as we can get to airtight"?

I find it hard to believe that the idea of airtight back when the Book of Mormon was written is the same as it is today. If it was airtight wouldn't they eventually suffocate as the oxygen would be consumed and what about carbon monoxide levels?

And as I've already stated, I don't believe the bible is literal in its stories either.

But do we really hinge our faith on these stories? I dunno...guys, your arguments don't serve to persuade me to leave the LDS church and you don't persuade me to remain. Rather your arguments point out how crazy anyone is to believe in ANY religious organizations.

Your contentions and mocking of each other just make me cringe because I'm quite certain that if Christ were to enter into the discussion he'd remind us how silly such debates are and that simple faith in him is all that is requisite.

errmmm submarines today are airtight, space craft usually are...

if they were not airtight, why did they mention to God they would suffocate, though it surprises me that God didn't realise humans needed air as he did make them...

how where they going to get in these dishes.. prior to the holes being cut in to them..

 

[Cassiopeia]

errmmm submarines today are airtight, space craft usually are...

if they were not airtight, why did they mention to God they would suffocate, though it surprises me that God didn't realise humans needed air as he did make them...

how where they going to get in these dishes.. prior to the holes being cut in to them..

.....errrrmmmmmm....so then, thinking through this...they didn't have the technology that we have today back then...so it is reasonable to make the statement that they weren't airtight and therefore not the same as our submarines.

Gotcha!

 

[bbbbbbb]

Seriously? This thread is still going? Is there such a thing as airtight even today? Or do we get as close to air tight as we can and just use the description as airtight for "as close as we can get to airtight"?

I find it hard to believe that the idea of airtight back when the Book of Mormon was written is the same as it is today. If it was airtight wouldn't they eventually suffocate as the oxygen would be consumed and what about carbon monoxide levels?

And as I've already stated, I don't believe the bible is literal in its stories either.

But do we really hinge our faith on these stories? I dunno...guys, your arguments don't serve to persuade me to leave the LDS church and you don't persuade me to remain. Rather your arguments point out how crazy anyone is to believe in ANY religious organizations.

Your contentions and mocking of each other just make me cringe because I'm quite certain that if Christ were to enter into the discussion he'd remind us how silly such debates are and that simple faith in him is all that is requisite.

That is precisely what is conveyed in the Book of Ether account - so tight (as a plate) that the occupants would be asphyxiated except for having a hole in the top of the vessel and a hole in the bottom to let air in.

BTW, I doubt that any of us here will be changing our religious views as a result of this, or any discussion.

 

[joneysd]

.....errrrmmmmmm....so then, thinking through this...they didn't have the technology that we have today back then...so it is reasonable to make the statement that they weren't airtight and therefore not the same as our submarines.

Gotcha!

errrmm if they weren't airtight why were they scared of suffocating.....