• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Are The Scriptures Sufficiently Clear?

Anto9us

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2013
5,105
2,041
Texas
✟95,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,014
22,640
US
✟1,720,289.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Fair enough.

Can you name five things all Protestants believe in, agree upon and generally have never disputed.

Bear in mind, I’m asking you to vouch that no Protestants have ever disagreed with your ideas in good faith.

Apostle's Creed. This doesn't mean there isn't disagreement on specifically what the words mean, though, just as there is disagreement between Catholics and Protestants on precisely what "saint" means...but we all agree that it means something and we ought to believe in whatever that is.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,014
22,640
US
✟1,720,289.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This isn't made explicitly clear in Scripture. But I would argue that "the precise procedure" is left to our judgment. The essential elements are clear - water, in the name of the Triune God, etc... But dunking, thrice dunking, or sprinkling? Who cares?

I would agree that if the precise procedure were an "essential," scripture would make it clear.

But a lot of people come to division over the precise procedure as though it were an essential.
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,252
✟55,667.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I would agree that if the precise procedure were an "essential," scripture would make it clear.

But a lot of people come to division over the precise procedure as though it were an essential.
Agreed. They unfortunately do. But this would amount to a denial of Sola Scriptura! So, in this instance, the church divides because of a failure to adhere to Sola Scriptura.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

Anto9us

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2013
5,105
2,041
Texas
✟95,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
There are enough instances in Scripture of "somebody AND THEIR WHOLE HOUSEHOLD" was baptized...

Cornelius
Lydia
Phillipian Jailier
household of Stephanus

this might make a case for infant baptism

I was sprinkled in Methodist Church as an infant - i did not give either consent or refusal

at 19 I was saved and was dunked in a Baptist Church by my own choice

a lady at another board just got poured on

as said "who cares?"

if procedure was an essential, it would have been delineated in Scripture

was not -- in non-essentials - Liberty
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟199,236.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In the Medieval era before the Reformation it was illegal in many places for private Christians to gather together to read the Bible. And the Bible was not translated into the common language because it was supposed that the Bible is not sufficiently clear - it is not able to be understood by the common people.

Nonsense. Total, unadulterated nonsense.
There is evidence the earlier church fathers were advocates for the laity to read the Scriptures. I believe @Tree of Life mentioned it was in the Medieval era.

It is indisputable that in Apostolic times the Old Testament was commonly read by Jews (John 5:47; Acts 8:28; 17:2,11; 2 Timothy 3:15). Roman Catholics admit that this reading was not restricted in the first centuries, in spite of its abuse by Gnostics and other heretics. On the contrary, the reading of Scripture was urged (Justin Martyr, xliv, ANF, i, 177-178; Jerome, Adv. libros Rufini, i, 9, NPNF, 2d ser., iii, 487); and Pamphilus, the friend of Eusebius, kept copies of Scripture to furnish to those who desired them. Chrysostom attached considerable importance to the reading of Scripture on the part of the laity and denounced the error that it was to be permitted only to monks and priests (De Lazaro concio, iii, MPG, xlviii, 992; Hom. ii in Matt., MPG, lvii, 30, NPNF, 2d ser., x, 13). He insisted upon access being given to the entire Bible, or at least to the New Testament (Hom. ix in Col., MPG, lxii, 361, NPNF, xiii, 301). The women also, who were always at home, were diligently to read the Bible (Hom. xxxv on Gen. xii, MPG, liii, 323). Jerome recommended the reading and studying of Scripture on the part of the women (Epist., cxxviii, 3, MPL, xxii, 1098, NPNF, 2d ser., vi, 259; Epist., lxxix, 9, MPG, xxii, 730-731, NPNF, 2d ser., vi, 167). The translations of the Bible, Augustine considered a blessed means of propagating the Word of God among the nations (De doctr. christ., ii, 5, NPNF, 1st ser., ii, 536); Gregory I recommended the reading of the Bible without placing any limitations on it (Hom. iii in Ezek., MPL, lxxvi, 968). — New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia (Sources provided for further examination in context if so desired)

And why not? The early fathers dealt with a host of heresies and used Holy Scriptures as the basis to refute the errors before them. As quoted here:

Through most of the fourth century, the controversy with the Arians had turned upon Scripture, and appeals to past authority were few. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 6, page 2)

“There was far more extensive and continuous use of Scriptures in the public service of the early Church than there is among us.” (Addis and Arnold, Catholic Dictionary, The Catholic Publication Society, 1887, page 509)

Our present convenient compendiums -- the Missal, Breviary, and so on were formed only at the end of a long evolution. In the first period (lasting perhaps till about the fourth century) there were no books except the Bible, from which lessons were read and Psalms were sung. Nothing was written, because nothing was fixed. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 15 Volume Special Edition under the auspices of the Knights of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee, The Encyclopedia Press Inc., New York, 1913, Volume 9, page 296)


From the Catholic Encyclopedia (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Scripture):

(1) During the course of the first millennium of her existence, the Church did not promulgate any law concerning the reading of Scripture in the vernacular. The faithful were rather encouraged to read the Sacred Books according to their spiritual needs (cf. St. Irenæus, "Adv. haer.", III, iv).

(2) The next five hundred years show only local regulations concerning the use of the Bible in the vernacular. On 2 January, 1080, Gregory VII wrote to the Duke of Bohemia that he could not allow the publication of the Scriptures in the language of the country. The letter was written chiefly to refuse the petition of the Bohemians for permission to conduct Divine service in the Slavic language. The pontiff feared that the reading of the Bible in the vernacular would lead to irreverence and wrong interpretation of the inspired text. ( St. Gregory VII, "Epist.", vii, xi).

The second document belongs to the time of the Waldensian and Albigensian heresies. The Bishop of Metz had written to Innocent III that there existed in his diocese a perfect frenzy for the Bible in the vernacular. In 1199 the pope replied that in general the desire to read the Scriptures was praiseworthy, but that the practice was dangerous for the simple and unlearned. ("Epist., II, cxli; Hurter, "Gesch. des. Papstes Innocent III", Hamburg, 1842, IV, 501 sqq.)...
  • It is only in the beginning of the last five hundred years that we meet with a general law of the Church concerning the reading of the Bible in the vernacular. On 24 March, 1564, Pius IV promulgated in his Constitution, "Dominici gregis", the Index of Prohibited Books . According to the third rule, the Old Testament may be read in the vernacular by pious and learned men, according to the judgment of the bishop, as a help to the better understanding of the Vulgate.

    The fourth rule places in the hands of the bishop or the inquisitor the power of allowing the reading of the New Testament in the vernacular to laymen who according to the judgment of their confessor or their pastor can profit by this practice.

    Sixtus V reserved this power to himself or the Sacred Congregation of the Index, and Clement VIII added this restriction to the fourth rule of the Index, by way of appendix.

    Benedict XIV required that the vernacular version read by laymen should be either approved by the Holy See or provided with notes taken from the writings of the Fathers or of learned and pious authors. It then became an open question whether this order of Benedict XIV was intended to supersede the former legislation or to further restrict it.

    This doubt was not removed by the next three documents: the condemnation of certain errors of the Jansenist Quesnel as to the necessity of reading the Bible , by the Bull "Unigenitus" issued by Clement XI on 8 Sept., 1713 (cf. Denzinger, "Enchir.", nn. 1294-1300); the condemnation of the same teaching maintained in the Synod of Pistoia, by the Bull "Auctorem fidei" issued on 28 Aug., 1794, by Pius VI; the warning against allowing the laity indiscriminately to read the Scriptures in the vernacular, addressed to the Bishop of Mohileff by Pius VII, on 3 Sept., 1816.

    But the Decree issued by the Sacred Congregation of the Index on 7 Jan., 1836, seems to render it clear that henceforth the laity may read vernacular versions of the Scriptures, if they be either approved by the Holy See, or provided with notes taken from the writings of the Fathers or of learned Catholic authors. The same regulation was repeated by Gregory XVI in his Encyclical of 8 May, 1844.
Other sources on the Medieval timeframe:

“In early times the Bible was read freely by the lay people. and the Fathers encouraged them to do so...No prohibitions were issued against the popular reading of the Bible...New dangers came in during the Middle Ages...To meet those evils, the Council of Toulouse, France (1229) and Terragona, Spain, (1234) [local councils], forbade the laity to read the vernacular translations of the Bible. (Toulouse was in response to the Albigensian heresy, and while this reveals a recourse of restrinction of access to Scripture when faced with challenges, it is understood that when the Albigensian problem disappeared, so did the force of their order, which never affected more than southern France.) http://www.lazyboysreststop.org/true_attitude.htm; A Catholic Dictionary: William Edward Addis, ?Thomas Arnold, p. 82

Council of Toulouse, 1229, Canon 14:

"We prohibit the permission of the books of the Old and New Testament to laymen, except perhaps they might desire to have the Psalter, or some Breviary for the divine service, or the Hours of the blessed Virgin Mary, for devotion; expressly forbidding their having the other parts of the Bible translated into the vulgar tongue" (Pierre Allix, Ecclesiastical History of Ancient Churches of the Albigenses, published in Oxford at the Clarendon Press in 1821, reprinted in USA in 1989 by Church History Research & Archives, P.O. Box 38, Dayton Ohio, 45449, p. 213).

Pius IV (1499 -1565) "required bishops to refuse lay persons leave to read even Catholic versions of Scripture unless their confessors or parish priests judged that such reading was likely to prove beneficial.” (Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, 1887, page 82) https://ia800303.us.archive.org/3/items/catholicdiction00addiuoft/catholicdiction00addiuoft.pdf

Trent: TEN RULES CONCERNING PROHIBITED BOOKS DRAWN UP BY THE FATHERS CHOSEN BY THE COUNCIL OF TRENT AND APPROVED BY POPE PIUS

Rule IV: Since it is clear from experience that if the Sacred Books are permitted everywhere and without discrimination in the vernacular, there will by reason of the boldness of men arise therefrom more harm than good, the matter is in this respect left to the judgment of the bishop or inquisitor, who may with the advice of the pastor or confessor permit the reading of the Sacred Books translated into the vernacular by Catholic authors to those who they know will derive from such reading no harm but rather an increase of faith and piety, which permission they must have in writing. Those, however, who presume to read or possess them without such permission may not receive absolution from their sins till they have handed them over to the ordinary. Bookdealers who sell or in any other way supply Bibles written in the vernacular to anyone who has not this permission, shall lose the price of the books, which is to be applied by the bishop to pious purposes, and in keeping with the nature of the crime they shall be subject to other penalties which are left to the judgment of the same bishop. Regulars who have not the permission of their superiors may not read or purchase them.

The first recognized Catholic English Bible:

“When English Roman Catholics created their first English biblical translation in exile at Douai and Reims, it was not for ordinary folk to read, but [primarily] for priests to use as a polemical weapon.—the explicit purpose which the 1582 title-page and preface of the Reims New Testament proclaimed. Only the Jansenists of early seventeenth-century France came to have a more positive and generous attitude to promoting Bible-reading among Catholics" (Oxford University professor Diarmaid MacCulloch, The Reformation: A History, 2003, p. 406; p. 585.)


It is a mixed history and mixed bag of prohibitions and restrictions. I believe the above is a fair assessment as most are Roman Catholic sources.
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,424
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Sure looks doctrinal to me.
Ah. Glazed over your post during a cigarette break at work and thought that related to something else.

And yet, I may still be right. This is an issue I haven’t reviewed in detail but to my knowledge, the Church’s objection to the whole same sex attraction thing is acting upon it. Simply experiencing SSA isn’t exactly positive but it’s not the end of the world either. I know nothing about that book assuming the message of it is something like “Be nice to people experiencing SSA”, I don’t see a problem. That’s still not a doctrinal statement, to be sure, but it is possibly good policy.
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,424
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Apostle's Creed. This doesn't mean there isn't disagreement on specifically what the words mean, though, just as there is disagreement between Catholics and Protestants on precisely what "saint" means...but we all agree that it means something and we ought to believe in whatever that is.
To be clear, you’re saying all Protestants at all times in all places everywhere won’t reject the Apostles Creed or even disagree with anything the creed proclaims?
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,252
✟55,667.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
To be clear, you’re saying all Protestants at all times in all places everywhere won’t reject the Apostles Creed or even disagree with anything the creed proclaims?

To be clear, I would say that the vast majority of Protestants would accept the Apostles' Creed as a baseline standard of orthodoxy. There may be some so called Protestant individuals who reject articles of the creed. I have in mind some liberal theologians in the Protestant tradition who are atheists! Think of Bishop Spong! But the vast majority of Protestants would anathematize these people. Those who depart from the Apostles' Creed are anathematized by Protestants. But for those within the bounds of the creed, Protestants may disagree with each other but we don't anathematize each other.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RDKirk
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,395
United States
✟152,342.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The disagreement occasionally seen in Catholicism is on issues where the Church expressly allows differing opinions in good faith. By definition, it does not harm our communion.

Comparing that to the real and substantive disagreements Protestants have with each other is simply intellectually dishonest.
I think it would be enormously incorrect to pretend that all Catholics believe every dogma of the RCC. I grew up in the RCC; I've seen it first hand. Or are we going to pretend Catholics don't disagree on, for example, the subject of birth control?
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,818
1,642
67
Northern uk
✟664,011.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
You miss the difference between Catholicism and protestantism

Catholics accept the need for tradition and authority to understand scripture, indeed to decide what scripture is, which was the product of church authority.

That doctine is handed in a catechism as document of tradition and authority.
And far from "disagreeing" on it, you are not a catholic if you do not accept the catechism.
When some say they disagree, they are not catholic when they say that.

But here is the difference.

Protestants also view scripture through a lens of tradition, they just dont admit it, some written as confessions and articles , some is not. But the very existence of the confession disproves sola scriptura.

When you state "not taught in scripture" you mean not in your interpretation of it.
And there is the problem. Your interpretation is tradition.

For example.
Since the earliest times the early fathers have taught the eucharist is the flesh of Jesus, valid perofmed by bishop in succesion or his appointee, and because it really is Jesus, it can therefore be profaned. Where do we get that from? The answer is we see it everywhere in early fathers, take ignatius to Smurneans who was taught by apostle John, who should know what John 6 means, and what it says is "unless you eat the flesh..you have no life in you " and if you do "he will raise you up at the last day"

So that is serious not detail.

Pre reformation churches all believed that. Many protestant churches do not.
They regard it as symbolism., but clearly that is not what the early church thought, and those who believe that clearly hold a different interpretation of one key verse.. "the words I taught are spirand life"

So scripture is not enough. Or that disagreement would not exist.

And when it comes to church authority "bind and loose" "keys of kindgom" "pillar of truth" they are fundamental.Because that is deciding how you resolve critical dcotrine. Or evn what is scripture.
As is the meaning of baptism. We can determine from early church, ie tradition.



.



I don't think that Protestants disagree on the essentials. Here's an example of a basic confession which unites many protestants - Reforming Catholic Confession

Also, 99% of Protestants accept the Apostles' Creed. What's expressed in that Creed is, in my opinion, the absolute essentials. We are very united on these things. We're divided on other things but I would say that these are non-essential. But that's nothing unique to Protestants. Catholics are also very "divided" within Catholicism.



A good example of non-essential things. Baptism is essential. All agree to that. But mode of baptism? Psht. Who cares?



Confessions exist because they are very helpful. They don't add anything to Scripture. Rather, they draw out what is already implicit in Scripture. Confessions help unify the church and clarify doctrine. But confessions are not infallible. And they have no authority to add anything to the Bible.

The teaching of the magisterium, on the other hand, is taken to be infallible. They also add doctrines for acceptance that are not taught in Scripture. The difference between Catholicism and Reformed faith is not that one has confessions and the other does not. The difference is in how we view our confessions.



Non-essential items. You'll find these disagreements within Catholicism too.
 
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,395
United States
✟152,342.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That doctine is handed in a catechism as document of tradition and authority.
And far from "disagreeing" on it, you are not a catholic if you do not accept the catechism.
When some say they disagree, they are not catholic when they say that.
No true Scotsman. Got it.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

W2L

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2016
20,085
10,988
USA
✟213,593.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You miss the difference between Catholicism and protestantism

Catholics accept the need for tradition and authority to understand scripture, indeed to decide what scripture is, which was the product of church authority.

That doctine is handed in a catechism as document of tradition and authority.
And far from "disagreeing" on it, you are not a catholic if you do not accept the catechism.
When some say they disagree, they are not catholic when they say that.

But here is the difference.

Protestants also view scripture through a lens of tradition, they just dont admit it, some written as confessions and articles , some is not. But the very existence of the confession disproves sola scriptura.

When you state "not taught in scripture" you mean not in your interpretation of it.
And there is the problem. Your interpretation is tradition.

For example.
Since the earliest times the early fathers have taught the eucharist is the flesh of Jesus, valid perofmed by bishop in succesion or his appointee, and because it really is Jesus, it can therefore be profaned. Where do we get that from? The answer is we see it everywhere in early fathers, take ignatius to Smurneans who was taught by apostle John, who should know what John 6 means, and what it says is "unless you eat the flesh..you have no life in you " and if you do "he will raise you up at the last day"

So that is serious not detail.

Pre reformation churches all believed that. Many protestant churches do not.
They regard it as symbolism., but clearly that is not what the early church thought, and those who believe that clearly hold a different interpretation of one key verse.. "the words I taught are spirand life"

So scripture is not enough. Or that disagreement would not exist.

And when it comes to church authority "bind and loose" "keys of kindgom" "pillar of truth" they are fundamental.Because that is deciding how you resolve critical dcotrine. Or evn what is scripture.
As is the meaning of baptism. We can determine from early church, ie tradition.



.
Billions of protestants have come to know the Lord via His word (scriptures) Im one of them. I follow what God teaches me, i follow what He puts in my heart.

Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟199,236.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The precise procedure of baptism, for instance.
βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash.
 
Upvote 0

straykat

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
1,120
640
Catacombs
✟37,648.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
As much as I'm grateful for Protestant efforts to make the scriptures plain, I think the history of the Reformation is evidence in itself that scripture wasn't sufficient. All kinds of people popped out of the woodwork preaching Sola Scriptura, but ended up butting heads. I think the saddest episode is perhaps Lutherans and Anabaptists getting to the brink of actual warfare. But outside of dramatic things like that, the history of Protestantism shows just how many denominations have been made, and how many of them say "Sola Scriptura". How is scripture sufficient if this is the outcome? You tell me if this is synonymous with "sufficient".

But I'm not a Catholic either. Their idea of tradition was Aquinas. They may drop patristic names, but it's really all about Aquinas. This is where the worldview is truly crystallized. And then they dropped that somewhat in V2 anyways, so I don't even know what they stand for anymore. It's neither scripture OR tradition. And any honest Catholic would admit it. There's nothing traditional or even Christian about watching your Pope and bishops worship with Voodoo or Hindu adherents or teaching atheistic historical-criticism studies of the scriptures. It isn't just Francis. It started well before this. And it's hardly what I'd consider "sufficient" Christianity either.
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,252
✟55,667.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
As much as I'm grateful for Protestant efforts to make the scriptures plain, I think the history of the Reformation is evidence in itself that scripture wasn't sufficient. All kinds of people popped out of the woodwork preaching Sola Scriptura, but ended up butting heads. I think the saddest episode is perhaps Lutherans and Anabaptists getting to the brink of actual warfare. But outside of dramatic things like that, the history of Protestantism shows just how many denominations have been made, and how many of them say "Sola Scriptura". How is scripture sufficient if this is the outcome? You tell me if this is synonymous with "sufficient".

This assumes a certain goal of sufficiency. Are the Scriptures alone sufficient to end all disagreements, put away all division among Christians, end all factionalism, destroy denominationalism, and unite all churches under one visible entity? No. This is not what Sola Scriptura claims that the Scriptures are sufficient to do.

Neither are the Scriptures sufficient to usher in a New Heavens and a New Earth.

But the Scriptures are sufficient to save people and to teach them the will of God. Denominationalism is inevitable. A necessary evil that is a part of living in a fallen world. It existed even within the New Testament era. Just look at 1 Corinthians 1.
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

straykat

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
1,120
640
Catacombs
✟37,648.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
This assumes a certain goal of sufficiency. Are the Scriptures alone sufficient to end all disagreements, put away all division among Christians, end all factionalism, destroy denominationalism, and unite all churches under one visible entity? No. This is not what Sola Scriptura claims that the Scriptures are sufficient to do.

Neither are the Scriptures sufficient to usher in a New Heavens and a New Earth.

But the Scriptures are sufficient to save people and to teach them the will of God. Denominationalism is inevitable. A necessary evil that is a part of living in a fallen world. It existed even within the New Testament era. Just look at 1 Corinthians 1.

Well, I can agree with much of that. Indeed, they will bring people to God. If it was up to me, I'd say that was enough.

But obviously it wasn't enough: Jesus built a Church. The scriptures also say this. We have to know where and what it is. That's what I'm here for... I'm seeking it myself. I'm missing something.

Also, it's a bit sad to think that the Holy Spirit fell asleep for a thousand years or more. This is the biggest flaw I find with Protestants the most (and where I understand Catholics). And almost every offspring of Protestantism ends up repeating the same flaw: Thinking things went horribly sideways, and "We have finally restored the Truth after all of this time!" It makes a mockery of providence. It's an ever repeating pattern. Even when they depart from historical Protestants, it keeps popping up. Charismatics do it too. As much as I appreciate many Christians in these circles (and truly, I do), this whole premise doesn't sit well with me at all.
 
Upvote 0