Are some of the Pauline Epistles Gnostic forgeries?

[Der Alte]

If I had the luxury of studying Greek, I would. But I can't even find a decent place to live.

But I will read that link you gave, thanks!

You don't have to read Greek to read the big books. They are written in English and explain the Greek. At Internet Archives you can find some of the books that are in the public domain, e.g. the 1200 page Greek grammar by A.T. Robertson, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Alfred Edersheim, Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, E. Kautzch, History of Christian Religion And Church, Dr. Augustus Neander, etc.

 

[timewerx]

You don't have to read Greek to read the big books. They are written in English and explain the Greek. At Internet Archives you can find some of the books that are in the public domain, e.g. the 1200 page Greek grammar by A.T. Robertson, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Alfred Edersheim, Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, E. Kautzch, History of Christian Religion And Church, Dr. Augustus Neander, etc.

I'll try but finding time for it is the difficult part. Will keep this for future reference though, thanks!

Anyway, I may seem like ditching NT but I'm keeping a small part which is the Gospel of JOhn.

 

[single eye]

Do not bother wasting your time studying ancient languages or the o.t. Saint John provided us with the uncorruptable chain of credibility in the AOJ. GOD created the Spirit of Truth and Yaltaboath created the universe, we were created in between the two. What everyone else says is just irrelevant blah blah.

 

[Meta Tron]

and James was very "worksy" and not really WITH THE PROGRAM that it was Grace rather than works that mattered

Ironically, it seems that James may have been the originator of the concept of "saved by grace".

Acts 15:11 No! We [the church in Jerusalem] believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they [gentiles] are.”

[*brackets mine]

James did have a "faith plus works" perspective though. Insofar as faith infers a responsibility to conduct oneself as much as possible in accordance with that faith. [works] IMO

All that being said, it remains that the Church in Jerusalem was the vine upon which the fruit of "Pauline" Christianity grew.

Far be it for me to relish the fruit and condemn the vine.

 

[Der Alte]

Do not bother wasting your time studying ancient languages or the o.t. Saint John provided us with the uncorruptable chain of credibility in the AOJ. GOD created the Spirit of Truth and Yaltaboath created the universe, we were created in between the two. What everyone else says is just irrelevant blah blah.

Ridiculous. There is no, zero, none evidence that the apostle John had anything to do with the spurious AOJ! The church has not been wrong for 2000 years +/- only to be discovered by one anonymous person on this forum.

 

[single eye]

D.A., Sounds very unlikely when you say it like that. However, here is your great big problem. The universe creater in genesis does not sound or act anything like Jesus in the gospels. So if you want to believe that GOD changed, knock yourself out. If you want to belive that GOD is a respector of persons like the israelites, knock youself out. If you want to believe that GOD would tempt Adam & Eve with fruit, knock yourself out. You certainly have a more popular position than I do, can't deny that.

 

[timewerx]

Do not bother wasting your time studying ancient languages or the o.t. Saint John provided us with the uncorruptable chain of credibility in the AOJ. GOD created the Spirit of Truth and Yaltaboath created the universe, we were created in between the two. What everyone else says is just irrelevant blah blah.

I'm not leaving one stone unturned. My belief is not yet set.

 

[single eye]

Have you considered the possibility that there is not enough time in our lifetime to overturn every stone? Or the possibility that everyone overlooks the most important stone?

 

[timewerx]

Have you considered the possibility that there is not enough time in our lifetime to overturn every stone? Or the possibility that everyone overlooks the most important stone?

True on both accounts but I do John 7:7 in context with John 14:12 and Ephesians 5:11.

 

[Soma Seer]

The automatic quote function has died on me again, so I'm improvising.

Der Alter writes:

Before you go throwing the entire NT out, with the bath water, I suggest you read the many books by Greek scholars instead of hanging your hat on the scribblings of one atheist.

I want to note that Ehrman is an agnostic, not an atheist. His belief in Christianity morphed into agnosticism due to his academic findings and interpretation of them.

I'm not saying that every single person would become agnostic from studying the same texts, but I think it only fair that Ehrman's beliefs be labeled accurately.

 

[rick357]

The automatic quote function has died on me again, so I'm improvising.

Der Alter writes:

I want to note that Ehrman is an agnostic, not an atheist. His belief in Christianity morphed into agnosticism due to his academic findings and interpretation of them.

I'm not saying that every single person would become agnostic from studying the same texts, but I think it only fair that Ehrman's beliefs be labeled accurately.

To be convinced there is no God and to not be sure about his existance would both be unbelief...so from scriptural perspective they are the same

 

[timewerx]

I'm not saying that every single person would become agnostic from studying the same texts, but I think it only fair that Ehrman's beliefs be labeled accurately.

I did not because I combined sound knowledge and logic to discern the Bible.

Knowledge and logic that was imparted to me by the Spirit. It agreed with pure, uncorrupted science combined with supernatural phenomenon in most respects.

It means that parts of the Bible aren't in the realm of fantasy or greed after all, but most do and I think they were simply teachings of men wrongfully inserted in the Bible.

 

[Meta Tron]

It was the "Gnostic Heretic Marcion"(sic) that first incorporated the Pauline Epistles into the form of a cannon.

The Canon of Marcion the heretic

 

[timewerx]

It was the "Gnostic Heretic Marcion"(sic) that first incorporated the Pauline Epistles into the form of a cannon.

The Canon of Marcion the heretic

Marcion corrupted Gnosticism.

 

[rick357]

Marcion corrupted Gnosticism.

To say someone corrupted qnosticism is like saying someone murdered a corpse

 

[Meta Tron]

Irrespective of subjective pedestrian commentary, it was (historically speaking) Marcion (who was refuted as a Gnostic heretic), that introduced Pauls Epistles to the first cannon.
It was Marcion (who was refuted as a Gnostic heretic) that introduced the first version ever recorded of a New Testament (*cannon).

 

[rick357]

Irrespective of subjective pedestrian commentary, it was (historically speaking) Marcion (who was refuted as a Gnostic heretic), that introduced Pauls Epistles to the first cannon.
It was Marcion (who was refuted as a Gnostic heretic) that introduced the first version ever recorded of a New Testament (*cannon).

That is a misleading statment....the churches passed all the same books we have now...with certain individual congregations using some books we dont count as cannon....yet Marcion was the first to declare only certain books as authoritative....being Luke and Pauls writtings alone....with no Ot or other authors....there was no NT before as the church still considered itself tied to Judaism with scripture being what we refer to as OT and the witnesses of the apostles.....so while he first collected certain books as a NEW covenant that statment is misleading at best....he also taught the God of OT was not the same God the church served....do you exalt that beliefe also?

 

[rick357]

I did not because I combined sound knowledge and logic to discern the Bible.

Knowledge and logic that was imparted to me by the Spirit. It agreed with pure, uncorrupted science combined with supernatural phenomenon in most respects.

It means that parts of the Bible aren't in the realm of fantasy or greed after all, but most do and I think they were simply teachings of men wrongfully inserted in the Bible.

The more you speak the more I hear Urantia I asked before and you skirted an answer....is Urantia something you consider a source of enlightenment?....I personaly wont attack you for it but understanding your direction in a conversation would be helpful

 

[rick357]

That is a misleading statment....the churches passed all the same books we have now...with certain individual congregations using some books we dont count as cannon....yet Marcion was the first to declare only certain books as authoritative....being Luke and Pauls writtings alone....with no Ot or other authors....there was no NT before as the church still considered itself tied to Judaism with scripture being what we refer to as OT and the witnesses of the apostles.....so while he first collected certain books as a NEW covenant that statment is misleading at best....he also taught the God of OT was not the same God the church served....do you exalt that beliefe also?

The last question as uncalled for and rude...I am sorry and ask for your forgivness...

 

[Meta Tron]

That is a misleading statment....the churches passed all the same books we have now...with certain individual congregations using some books we dont count as cannon....yet Marcion was the first to declare only certain books as authoritative....being Luke and Pauls writtings alone....with no Ot or other authors....there was no NT before as the church still considered itself tied to Judaism with scripture being what we refer to as OT and the witnesses of the apostles.....so while he first collected certain books as a NEW covenant that statment is misleading at best....he also taught the God of OT was not the same God the church served....do you exalt that beliefe also?

My beliefs are irrelevant to the conversation. I am simply citing an historicaly verifiable fact within the parameters of the original post. (sans editorializing)