Are Psychological Abnormalities a part of Christian Apologetics?

[Hieronymus]

You called atheists victims, not me.

Well, i used that term because you painted that picture.
It surprised me.
Where i live an atheist wouldn't have the problem you described.
Maybe in the not so distant future, when Islam will be dominant.

I only explained why atheists feel the need to organize and educate the public on our position.

But i think we all know what your position is.
Plenty of anti religious and / or atheist voices with large platforms out there.

It’s because we are a minority group that wants our voice heard.

Maybe you're a minority group in your area / state, or maybe you're more of a 'fringe atheist'.
The word 'atheism' can mean a few things nowadays.

You wishing we’d just shut up and deal with it is the exact opposite of the solidarity we seek.

I didn't say i think you should shut up.
But if you seek solidarity, what are you doing on a Christian forum, inferring Christians are foolish and deluded?
Or at least, that's what most atheists do on religious forums sooner or later...

I cannot speak to the “arrogance” and “ignorance” you refer to, hopefully you’re not referring to anyone in this thread.

Most atheists have no idea what they're talking about regarding the religions they oppose, yet they assume they know better.
That's ignorance and arrogance.
A very tiring combination....
At least, from a theistic or Christian perspective.

Most atheists don’t deny that having a god would be very convenient for explaining all the mysteries surrounding our existence, but that doesn’t give us license to conclude he must exist.

Apparently you feel entitled to conclude the dead unconscious forces and laws of nature can perform miracles.
But i usually notice that atheists are simply not aware of the reasons to believe God exists and the evidence for the existence of God, gods, the supernatural, the unseen realm, etcetera.
You also dismiss evidence that doesn't meet your naturalistic / scientific standards, as if it doesn't exist.

I don’t have a problem with the Christian faith per se any more than I have a problem with Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter.

Yes, ridicule is all you folks seem to have...
But you're ignorant to the evidence and the case for God's existence or Jesus existence and the credibility of the Bible.
So, as i said, what have you got to share or question that helps you find that solidarity?
Or did you only mean solidarity among yourselves?

It’s when people try to justify any harmful actions against me solely by citing the text that it becomes a problem.

i agree.
But how about communism, which is generally atheistic?
What was it, 100 million killed in 100 years?

People are not holy.
If they have the opportunity, they easily get evil and wicked.
Yes, people have used religions to gain power over others, but also ideologies that are not considered religious.
Whatever works to gain, increase and keep power, ambitious people will do it.

And let’s not pretend that a literal interpretation of Genesis isn’t ridiculous.

I don't know, i wasn't there at the time, and there's no video either.
But is it more ridiculous than dead unconscious laws and forces of nature accidentally creating something like living nature?
Doesn't even matter how long it would take.
But when you're a naturalist (which is a philosophical belief), you have no choice but to ascribe our reality to it.
As for Genesis, and i think you mean Genesis 1 (and 2) in particular (creation week), i don't think it's a scientific report.
What i do see is that there is huge platform and funding to have people dismiss creation (intelligent design and manufacturing).
But the problem they have boils down to trying to dismiss or refute a supernatural story, using a naturalistic paradigm.
But people buy it anyway, often not aware that in a naturalistic view, the supernatural simply does not exist.
But none the less, numerous theories (plagued by unlikeliness) of how genes could have come about and accidentally changed into all of living nature, doing a better job than the best human designers and engineers.

So, my question remains:
Why are atheists / naturalists so opposed to the idea of God existing and creating?
It must be misinformation, of which there is a LOT going round, unfortunately.
Maybe it's brainwashing or mind control through propaganda and suggestion.
There's a lot of that going round too.
And the organised religions have done their share of turning people off too, of course.

So i admit i don't really / fully understand the antipathy to the idea of God existing.
There is a traditional teaching that turns many people off big time.
It's the eternal torment in hell teaching.
This is based on the heretical belief that the soul or spirit of a human is immortal and can not and will not be destroyed by God.
This teaching has hardened the hearts of many Christians and non-Christians.
Islam teaches it too.
But the Biblical case for that view is quite weak.
But it's still the traditional view, adopted by most denominations.
And frankly, it's a valid reason (i.m.o.) to dismiss Christianity.
You will find though, that the Bible repeatedly speaks of destruction, annihilation of the wicked.
Eternal life is in Christ, with God.
Not in the lake of fire.

Christianity as a whole is quite a mess...
But i don't follow or put my trust Christianity.
I put my faith in God, and He (through human witers) gave us the Bible.

 

[gaara4158]

Well, i used that term because you painted that picture.
It surprised me.
Where i live an atheist wouldn't have the problem you described.
Maybe in the not so distant future, when Islam will be dominant.But i think we all know what your position is.
Plenty of anti religious and / or atheist voices with large platforms out there.Maybe you're a minority group in your area / state, or maybe you're more of a 'fringe atheist'.
The word 'atheism' can mean a few things nowadays.I didn't say i think you should shut up.
But if you seek solidarity, what are you doing on a Christian forum, inferring Christians are foolish and deluded?
Or at least, that's what most atheists do on religious forums sooner or later...Most atheists have no idea what they're talking about regarding the religions they oppose, yet they assume they know better.
That's ignorance and arrogance.
A very tiring combination....
At least, from a theistic or Christian perspective.Apparently you feel entitled to conclude the dead unconscious forces and laws of nature can perform miracles.
But i usually notice that atheists are simply not aware of the reasons to believe God exists and the evidence for the existence of God, gods, the supernatural, the unseen realm, etcetera.
You also dismiss evidence that doesn't meet your naturalistic / scientific standards, as if it doesn't exist.Yes, ridicule is all you folks seem to have...
But you're ignorant to the evidence and the case for God's existence or Jesus existence and the credibility of the Bible.
So, as i said, what have you got to share or question that helps you find that solidarity?
Or did you only mean solidarity among yourselves?i agree.
But how about communism, which is generally atheistic?
What was it, 100 million killed in 100 years?

People are not holy.
If they have the opportunity, they easily get evil and wicked.
Yes, people have used religions to gain power over others, but also ideologies that are not considered religious.
Whatever works to gain, increase and keep power, ambitious people will do it.
I don't know, i wasn't there at the time, and there's no video either.
But is it more ridiculous than dead unconscious laws and forces of nature accidentally creating something like living nature?
Doesn't even matter how long it would take.
But when you're a naturalist (which is a philosophical belief), you have no choice but to ascribe our reality to it.
As for Genesis, and i think you mean Genesis 1 (and 2) in particular (creation week), i don't think it's a scientific report.
What i do see is that there is huge platform and funding to have people dismiss creation (intelligent design and manufacturing).
But the problem they have boils down to trying to dismiss or refute a supernatural story, using a naturalistic paradigm.
But people buy it anyway, often not aware that in a naturalistic view, the supernatural simply does not exist.
But none the less, numerous theories (plagued by unlikeliness) of how genes could have come about and accidentally changed into all of living nature, doing a better job than the best human designers and engineers.

So, my question remains:
Why are atheists / naturalists so opposed to the idea of God existing and creating?
It must be misinformation, of which there is a LOT going round, unfortunately.
Maybe it's brainwashing or mind control through propaganda and suggestion.
There's a lot of that going round too.
And the organised religions have done their share of turning people off too, of course.

So i admit i don't really / fully understand the antipathy to the idea of God existing.
There is a traditional teaching that turns many people off big time.
It's the eternal torment in hell teaching.
This is based on the heretical belief that the soul or spirit of a human is immortal and can not and will not be destroyed by God.
This teaching has hardened the hearts of many Christians and non-Christians.
Islam teaches it too.
But the Biblical case for that view is quite weak.
But it's still the traditional view, adopted by most denominations.
And frankly, it's a valid reason (i.m.o.) to dismiss Christianity.
You will find though, that the Bible repeatedly speaks of destruction, annihilation of the wicked.
Eternal life is in Christ, with God.
Not in the lake of fire.

Christianity as a whole is quite a mess...
But i don't follow or put my trust Christianity.
I put my faith in God, and He (through human witers) gave us the Bible.

The only ridicule I’m seeing in this thread is from you. That and your whataboutism responses show me that you’re not going to be receptive to further honest retorts, so I’m just going to let this be. I’ve spent quite enough time here bickering fruitlessly, thank you.

 

[gaara4158]

Some degree of tension is normal, I think, and everyone, regardless of their beliefs, needs to deal with the fact that not only might people disagree with them, but that they might think the error entails a genuine moral problem. (This isn't one-sided either, since there are atheists who not only believe that theism is unwarranted, but that it is immoral.) People need to stop getting caught up in what everyone else thinks of their choices.

That’s true enough, but we can’t ignore the fact that what people think of our choices can have some very real consequences in our life outcomes. We just want to soften those consequences by fighting the stereotypes put out there by the pastors and apologists misrepresenting what we believe.

Ostracism strikes me as a different issue. I know a Mormon woman whose Jehovah Witness family refuses to have contact with her. You still hear about problems cropping up when people leave fundamentalist Protestantism for Catholicism or Orthodoxy. There are communities where you don't want to come out as rejecting specific doctrines (eternal hell, penal substitution), so the problem here seems a bit bigger than people not understanding what atheism is.

But seeing as “nones,” or those identifying as atheists, agnostics, or having no religious affiliation, are the fastest-growing “religious” group in the US and are most likely to be singled out by apologists, don’t you think ostracism for religious reasons is especially (even if not exclusively) relevant to them?

 

[Hieronymus]

The only ridicule I’m seeing in this thread is from you. That and your whataboutism responses show me that you’re not going to be receptive to further corrections,

Corrections? Haha!

so I’m just going to let this be. I’ve spent quite enough time here bickering fruitlessly, thank you.

As i said and explained why, i'm a bit tired of atheists on religious forums.
In stead of complaining you could have addressed a few points i made, since this is supposed to be a discussion or converstation.
But it seems you have nothing to say, not even answers to my questions.

 

[gaara4158]

Corrections? Haha!
As i said and explained why, i'm a bit tired of atheists on religious forums.
In stead of complaining you could have addressed a few points i made, since this is supposed to be a discussion or converstation.

There’s that ridicule again. I did go back and change the word “corrections” after some thought to “honest retorts.” I’m not interested in getting into a drawn-out debate on ground I’ve covered a dozen times already. If you want to have a discussion, don’t mince my responses sentence by sentence. Respond paragraph by paragraph, at least. That way I can’t be accused of ignoring important points if I skip one.

You seem to have a problem with the presence of atheists on a Christian forum. This is the apologetics section. Whom did you expect to be sparring with here?

 

[Hieronymus]

There’s that ridicule again. I did go back and change the word “corrections” after some thought to “honest retorts.”

Okay, i'm sorry i took it the wrong way.

I’m not interested in getting into a drawn-out debate on ground I’ve covered a dozen times already. If you want to have a discussion, don’t mince my responses sentence by sentence. Respond paragraph by paragraph, at least. That way I can’t be accused of ignoring important points if I skip one.

I reply thoroughly, to everything i deem relevant.
I don't think i missed your points by replying to many smaller things.

You seem to have a problem with the presence of atheists on a Christian forum.

It seem to me that atheists have a problem with Christian beliefs.

This is the apologetics section. Whom did you expect to be sparring with here?

Alright, fair enough.
But who did you expect to be sparring with then?

...so now what...
Unfortunately it's already 3:34 AM here and i'm supposed to get up early (for a Sunday) to take off to WiFi-less rural France for a few weeks...

 

[gaara4158]

It seem to me that atheists have a problem with Christian beliefs.

Some might, but most of us just don’t care. We just have a problem with beliefs being forced on us.

We all have our reasons for sparring, and at casual communities like this one it’s rarely because we’re actually trying to affect political change. Personally I’m here because the discussions are engaging, educational, and interesting. And I started here as a Christian.

Anyway, enjoy the hot French summer, where no one has A/C!

 

[Hieronymus]

@gaara4158
I'm reading the topic over again, and it seems i missed a few posts of yours that would have clarified your intentions, had i seen them...
And frankly, your barbarian profile picture didn't help either.
So i apologize for being overly harsh.
It seems i got stuck in a "Oh right, another God hater who will probably end up on my ignore list very soon" mode...
Call it prejudging, call it based on previous experiences, but it seems i only confirmed your impression of what Christians think of atheists...
But then again, i've met too many atheists online that fit the description.

So basically, now that i see your point better, in hind sight, you 'pay the price' for the militant attitude of "Dawkins atheists" on religious forums.

 

[Hieronymus]

Some might, but most of us just don’t care. We just have a problem with beliefs being forced on us.

I have a problem with that too.
Beliefs should be shared supported with reasons for believing it and / or with suggestions to look into things , not by force or peer pressure or propaganda.

We all have our reasons for sparring, and at casual communities like this one it’s rarely because we’re actually trying to affect political change. Personally I’m here because the discussions are engaging, educational, and interesting. And I started here as a Christian.

I can imagine losing your faith on this forum...
The things people subscribe to and say here...
I guess i'm guilty too...
I have bad manners online.
Half the time i'm banned..
Latest ban was lifted a few weeks ago, and i wasn't sure if i should come back again.

Anyway, enjoy the hot French summer, where no one has A/C!

True!
Yes, i'm afraid it's gonna be quite hot..

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have a problem with that too.
Beliefs should be shared supported with reasons for believing it and / or with suggestions to look into things , not by force or peer pressure or propaganda.
I can imagine losing your faith on this forum...
The things people subscribe to and say here...
I guess i'm guilty too...
I have bad manners online.
Half the time i'm banned..
Latest ban was lifted a few weeks ago, and i wasn't sure if i should come back again.
True!
Yes, i'm afraid it's gonna be quite hot..

Well, I'm glad you're back. And we all have some thinking to do about how we might find more constructive modes of interaction, conversations and debate. I have faults here, too, some of which I imagine folks would love for me to admit to and redress.

 

[gaara4158]

@gaara4158
I'm reading the topic over again, and it seems i missed a few posts of yours that would have clarified your intentions, had i seen them...
And frankly, your barbarian profile picture didn't help either.
So i apologize for being overly harsh.
It seems i got stuck in a "Oh right, another God hater who will probably end up on my ignore list very soon" mode...
Call it prejudging, call it based on previous experiences, but it seems i only confirmed your impression of what Christians think of atheists...
But then again, i've met too many atheists online that fit the description.

So basically, now that i see your point better, in hind sight, you 'pay the price' for the militant attitude of "Dawkins atheists" on religious forums.

I appreciate you taking the time to read through my posts! I am used to having theists make assumptions about me just as I’m sure you are used to atheists doing the same thing. We all carry the reputations of our worst representatives.

Also, my picture is just Kratos, the main character in the video game God of War. I tend to use pictures that reference my favorite media at the time.

 

[Silmarien]

That’s true enough, but we can’t ignore the fact that what people think of our choices can have some very real consequences in our life outcomes. We just want to soften those consequences by fighting the stereotypes put out there by the pastors and apologists misrepresenting what we believe.

If I remember correctly, the original question was why atheists sometimes seek to deconvert theists, not why they merely try to combat misinformation about atheism. Those are two different things, and it's the first one I'm thinking about. Most of the stereotypically angry atheistic apologists I see are ex-fundamentalists who have a truckload of issues to work through, and probably a need to convince other people to feel more secure in their own path.

Switching sides here can be very complicated--I've obviously done it in the reverse, and I had a lot of internalized issues with religion in general and Christianity in specific due to my own secular past. I was more sensitive to the sorts of assumptions that atheists made about theists, and used to lash out as a result (as I'm sure you remember ).

I suspect it's worse trying to find your footing as an atheist in a theistic world than the reverse, though, but a lot of people around here are very, very bad at it. There are any number that kind of just simmer with resentment towards Christianity, and then the special few that are actively looking for fights and tossing around abuse. I don't think any of that can be attributed to wanting to combat stereotypes, since they're kind of contributing to said stereotypes.

(Of course, there are lots of really troubled Christians around here as well.)

But seeing as “nones,” or those identifying as atheists, agnostics, or having no religious affiliation, are the fastest-growing “religious” group in the US and are most likely to be singled out by apologists, don’t you think ostracism for religious reasons is especially (even if not exclusively) relevant to them?

What do you mean by being singled out by apologists? Unless you're in the habit of wearing T-shirts that broadcast your atheism, nobody is going to know.

Ostracism strikes me as exclusively a family or community matter.

 

[gaara4158]

What do you mean by being singled out by apologists? Unless you're in the habit of wearing T-shirts that broadcast your atheism, nobody is going to know.

Ostracism strikes me as exclusively a family or community matter.

Yeah, that was worded kind of funny. What I mean is that pastors and preachers do apologetics in their sermons sometimes, and the way atheistic reasoning is depicted there might cause closeted atheists in the congregation to fear that they’re going to lose that community if they come out. Ostracism is definitely a family or community matter, and that’s not something to trivialize. Rich social connections are essential to mental health.

 

[Silmarien]

Yeah, that was worded kind of funny. What I mean is that pastors and preachers do apologetics in their sermons sometimes, and the way atheistic reasoning is depicted there might cause closeted atheists in the congregation to fear that they’re going to lose that community if they come out. Ostracism is definitely a family or community matter, and that’s not something to trivialize. Rich social connections are essential to mental health.

No, I agree that it's a real problem. I'm just not sure how an information campaign is going to help it. The types of communities where ostracization is an issue don't strike me as overly receptive to unfamiliar ideas. I'm thinking about the social problems homosexuals face as well--if people reassess their views, it's generally because they've known someone who's come out, not because of attempts to educate the public.

Unless you have gotten success with that sort of approach? I don't have direct contact with anything remotely resembling fundamentalism, so I don't know.

 

[gaara4158]

No, I agree that it's a real problem. I'm just not sure how an information campaign is going to help it. The types of communities where ostracization is an issue don't strike me as overly receptive to unfamiliar ideas. I'm thinking about the social problems homosexuals face as well--if people reassess their views, it's generally because they've known someone who's come out, not because of attempts to educate the public.

Unless you have gotten success with that sort of approach? I don't have direct contact with anything remotely resembling fundamentalism, so I don't know.

Yeah, as far as it goes to deal with the ostracism problem, I think the information campaign is more of a long-game strategy targeting the younger generation, hoping to pry them away from fundamentalism and eventually end the cycle.

 

[Tone]

Yeah, as far as it goes to deal with the ostracism problem, I think the information campaign is more of a long-game strategy targeting the younger generation, hoping to pry them away from fundamentalism and eventually end the cycle.

Has the theory of evolution been working?

 

[gaara4158]

Has the theory of evolution been working?

Working? For what?

 

[Tone]

Working? For what?

To break the cycle?

 

[gaara4158]

To break the cycle?

Evolution is just a part of science. General education works well on its own as an inoculation against fundamentalism, but the theory itself is not really a part of the atheists’ information campaign.

 

[Silmarien]

Yeah, as far as it goes to deal with the ostracism problem, I think the information campaign is more of a long-game strategy targeting the younger generation, hoping to pry them away from fundamentalism and eventually end the cycle.

I'm a bit confused. What sort of information campaign are you talking about precisely? I'm not sure what providing information about atheism has to do with prying people away from fundamentalism, unless the aim is specifically to convert them to atheism. Wandering around trying to sabotage people's faith by whatever means possible isn't going to make fundamentalists start seeing atheists in a more positive light--it's just going to reinforce the idea that they are dangerous.

It seems to me that the best way to combat fundamentalism would be to educate people about Christianity rather than about atheism. These rigid fundamentalist theologies tend to fall apart as so much modernism if you know anything about Church History.