I'm usually indisposed to post long passages of scripture on CF. The reason for that is because 99% of people will skip right by it, along with my entire post.
I do know what you mean, Bible study and in depth discussion can be elusive in some of these discussions.
This post will not be an exception.
I've tried to give your arguments a fair hearing, that's the best I can do.
Our Lord speaks at great length about His Body and Blood being literally consumed in St. John 6:31-68. As I say, I won't quote the entire thing here. But honestly, short of drawing pictures I don't know what more He could have done to express Himself in literal terms. Why is nobody I've traded posts with in this thread addressing this point?
First of all thank you for not posting all 68 verses, I hate that.
I'm sure your aware the Jesus has just performed the feeding of the 5000 and they wanted to make him king. Jesus tells them you must eat my flesh and drink my blood, the disciples start to grumble among themselves. At the beginning of his discussion Jesus says this:
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (John 6:28-29)
Toward the end of the discourse he drives home the point again:
The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” (John 6:63-64)
He tells them, you want to make me king because you ate and were filled (if you'll pardon the paraphrase). He compares himself to the manna that came down from heaven during the time of the wilderness wanderings. They beheld so many miracles and yet most of them did not believe, they grumbled and Moses was all the time telling them they were stiff necked and rebellious. When it came time to enter the promised land I count only four who believed God would deliver the enemy into their hand, Joshua, Caleb, Moses and a gentile named Rahab (who by the way, appears in Christ's genealogy). Surely you understand that participating in the Lord's Supper is meaningless if you don't believe the gospel. So why is it so hard to believe that faith is sufficient to receive Christ. I would never disparage the honoring of Christ in our sacred rites, I actually love that about Catholics, would to God more Protestants held them in such high regard. My interest is a doctrinal one, appreciate your willingness to engage on the issues in a substantive fashion.
St. Matthew 26:26-29, St. Mark 14:22-25 and St. Luke 22:19-20 all recount Our Lord blessing the bread and the wine. All three quote Our Lord saying "This is my body". How many dozens or hundreds of words is that? And, is typical, you're zeroing in on the only six or seven words from St. Luke's gospel that you think bolster your position.
It's the same Passover dinner, of course the bread is his body. Jesus doesn't say it becomes my body, he is just saying it represents his body that is given for us. He is talking about the cross and the thief on the cross received Christ without being baptized or participating in the Lord's Supper and more importantly, was received by Christ, why can't we.
Ok, Jesus did say, 'this is my body' but he didn't stop there.
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matt. 26:28)
The other quotes are very similar, remembering the blood of the covenant at the cross as a memorial and also in anticipation of the day when we will participate in the Lord's Supper after the resurrection.
This discussion (such as it is) grows tiresome. St. John 6:31-68. Address that or don't bother replying. Thanks.
Well I'm sorry you find it tiresome, I'm not trying to make this burdensome. I enjoy the reflections on the testimony of Scripture related to this doctrine. Notice he doesn't say this becomes my body, but that it is his body, indicating it represents his atoning sacrifice at the cross.
I realize your kind of running the gantlet here, there are a fair number of Protestants responding to your posts. I appreciate your willingness to examine the requisite proof texts and I'm not entirely unsympathetic to your sensibilities here. I hope we can continue to explore the testimony of Scripture on this matter, it's of greater meaning and worth then some can appreciate.
Jesus died for us, that's the meaning of the cross and the Lord's Supper. I don't consider that message to be burdensome and certainly don't want to be tiresome discussing it. To me it's the 'good news', I'm an Evangelical, this isn't a mindless ritual to be but an expression of the gospel. That simple expression of our faith in Christ and him crucified is more then enough to give that ceremony profound meaning. The bread to me is secondary to what it represents, that Jesus died for our sins. That is blessed hope.
Grace and peace,
Mark
