Are Protestants dead?

zoidar

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So sacraments, as their called, are a salvation issue with you? I see it differently.

You say that one can be saved without being baptized... but there will be consequences if one isn't baptized?

I think it's pretty bad if you can do it, but refuse. I think there will be consequences, hopefully not endangering your salvation, but consequences. I believe all we do, good and bad have consequences both here and in the eternal kingdom to come.
 
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W2L

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If that were so, why is there so much doctrinal overlap between the Catholic Church and the Early Church? My sig contains a quote from St. Irenaeus from circa 189 AD that extols the importance of the bishop of Rome.

Friend, there's a lot of pseudo-history floating around Protestant Christian circles. I have my suspicions as to why that is but the main point is that reading the Church Fathers is an eye-opening experience for a lot of people.

Others would have. And who needs the grief, right?

You say that one can be saved without being baptized... but there will be consequences if one isn't baptized?
I dont need Letters to see error in Catholicism, all i need is the bible. Looking at all the division in theology, i prefer to keep things simple. Im not a traditionalist because i dont trust tradition, especially Catholic tradition.
 
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W2L

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I think it's pretty bad if you can do it, but refuse. I think there will be consequences, hopefully not endangering your salvation, but consequences. I believe all we do, good and bad have consequences both here and in the eternal kingdom to come.
I believe God chastens His children, the scriptures clearly say this. But i dont think he does that over sacraments. Thats just my faith though.

1 Corinthians 1:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
 
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Jonathan Leo

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Im sure it wasn't about communion. I cant believe a persons life or soul would hang on communion.
Read the start of the thread, PARTAKE IN COMMUNION AKA LORDS SUPPER.
I KNEW MOST PEOPLE WHO TAKE COMMUNION AND THEY HAVENT A CLUE WHO JESUS IS
 
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thecolorsblend

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I dont need Letters to see error in Catholicism,
Okay, put that aside for just a moment. Irrespective of the Catholic thing, the Church Fathers, men who were personally trained by apostles and may even have followed Our Lord Himself during His earthly ministry, committed many of their beliefs to writing. Those writings are still illustrative of what they believed.

What they believed is different from what you believe... even though they had access to the same scriptures you do. That should be relevant in any fair and objective study of history, yes?

Im not a traditionalist because i dont trust tradition, especially Catholic tradition.
Without tradition, you really have no way of knowing that the compilation you call "the Bible" is made up of sacred scripture.
 
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aiki

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Obvious to whom? It's not obvious to the 1 billion Catholics in the world today. It's not obvious to the 300'ish million Orthodox in the world today. It wasn't obvious to the early Church.

Argumentum ad populum - which is a logical fallacy.

Why didn't he say that then?

Because, as I pointed out, it was obvious that he was speaking figuratively.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Argumentum ad populum - which is a logical fallacy.
Nobody believes that. ;)

Because, as I pointed out, it was obvious that he was speaking figuratively.
It wasn't obvious to the people who abandoned Him in St. John 6... a point which nobody in this thread seems willing to discuss.
 
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Willie T

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The Sacrifice that only God could accomplish. An act of Divine Love. Salvation. Compared to a car accident?
That is basically what you have done when you erect a bloody statue at the front of the building, and dwell on that, forgetting that He actually personified LOVE for mankind and died that death, in a great part, so that we would also remember those He died for... (His 'Body') He doesn't need us to reenact an execution in our minds. He wants us to love one another, and thus...... "remember Him."
 
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thecolorsblend

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People (C or P) that are hooked up on that may just be missing everything Jesus lived for.
Our Lord's ministry was wonderful and probably would've changed the world all by itself.

But the objective reality is that Christianity as a religion hinges upon the crucifixion and death of Our Lord. "By His wounds, we are healed." Not "By His miraculous birth, not "By His life", not "By His earthly ministry", not anything else. By His wounds. Our salvation comes from His sacrifice.

Celebrating our salvation, I think, ought to include some acknowledgement of exactly what that cost Our Lord.
 
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I'll take it to a different area... Yes, as a "Protestant" I'm dead... Dead to self, yet i live, yet not i but Christ in me... I am a new creature, oldbthings have passed away all things become new

 
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Willie T

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Our Lord's ministry was wonderful and probably would've changed the world all by itself.

But the objective reality is that Christianity as a religion hinges upon the crucifixion and death of Our Lord. "By His wounds, we are healed." Not "By His miraculous birth, not "By His life", not "By His earthly ministry", not anything else. By His wounds. Our salvation comes from His sacrifice.

Celebrating our salvation, I think, ought to include some acknowledgement of exactly what that cost Our Lord.
Because He lives, we have Salvation and also live. If He had stayed dead, His death would have meant nothing. It is all "because He lives."
 
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thecolorsblend

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Because He lives, we have Salvation and also live. If He had stayed dead, His death would have meant nothing. It is all "because He lives."
Penalty for the sins of mankind was not paid by His resurrection but by His suffering and death. I think you're getting the cart before the horse.
 
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mark kennedy

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The traditional one?

The Scriptures are a Christian tradition, it represents the doctrine of the Apostles. Jesus explains that eating his flesh and drinking his blood is believing in him, that his words are spirit and truth not literal bread and wine or literal flesh and blood. Jesus says that wherever two or more are gathered in his name he is 'present' with them, no reference to transubstantiation. In the Upper Room Jesus tell them to do this in remembrance of him, no further instructions other then by this all men will know you are my disciples, if you have love one for another (John 13:35).

He said a fair bit more than that.

And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.
-- St. Luke 22:19 (DRA)

Now, I've noticed that Protestants tend to only remember the last seven words of that passage and think "Golly, I guess that's all there is to it, herp a derp!"

But He said "This is my body". He didn't say "This represents" or "This is comparable to" or "This is a metaphor". He said "This IS my body."

That's the key to any figurative language in the Scriptures, using 'like', 'as' or it's literary equivalent as a basis for a comparison. The bread represents his body, he didn't say anything about it becoming his body. On the contrary, the New Testament makes clear that the Church is the body of Christ. Paul drives this home conclusively (1 Corinthians 11:28-29). In the immediate context Paul describes how the rich are mistreating the poor in their love feasts. James is describing the same thing in James 2 asking the rhetorical question, is this even saving faith. In both instances, the body of Christ is clearly believers.

It's not as complicated as you're making it.

I would agree that it's not complicated.

Catholics commemorate Our Lord by receiving His Body and Blood. That's the Eucharist.

You'll never get that from the New Testament, the Church, the body of believers is the body of Christ. You receive Christ through faith, the Lord's Supper is simply a memorial of Christ's atoning sacrifice. Every year the Jews had an atoning sacrifice, yet it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin. So your seriously telling me now these oblations are replaced by a wafer and some grape juice?

Protestants just commemorate by drinking grape juice and eating crackers. That's not the Eucharist.

Why, because we don't believe the bread and wine are transubstantiated? This is not the traditional teaching of the church going back to the first century, some believed it some didn't. That language didn't appear until 'Hildebert de Lavardin, Archbishop of Tours' and wasn't popularized until the 12th century. Luke didn't teach any such thing, nor did Paul, Jesus simply said do this in remembrance of me and in Matt. 18:20 Jesus tells us 'where two or more are gathered in his name, "there am I with them". What you are calling a traditional teaching of the church is absent in Church tradition for over half it's history and in the clear testimony of the Scriptures.

Now I'm aware that there have been Christians who believed the bread and wine thought it became the literal body and blood of Christ. It was not an actual doctrine until some time in the 12th century. Now you want me to believe that I cannot discern the body of Christ because I don't believe that bread becomes Jesus? I no more agree with that then I do that Jesus thought himself a loaf of bread.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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Wow, you really aren't grasping that I'm not talking about that, are you?

Sure I am, I just disagree.

That's the lowest hanging fruit so I can see why you keep gravitating toward that.

It's the clear meaning of the text, he says nothing beyond 'do this in remembrance of me'. The way the doctrine of the Lord's Supper is elaborated on in 1Corinthians 11 and Paul is crystal clear that the body of Christ is the Church, never suggesting the bread and wine or anything other then bread and wine. That's how you discern the body of Christ, when they failed to do so they were judged, Paul tells us, 'some of you are sick and some of you sleep. Don't take my word for anything, take a look at 1 Corinthians 11 and James 2. discerning the body of Christ is to understand, how we treat other believers is how we treat the risen Savior.
 
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W2L

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W2L, What do you mean with 1 cor 1:17-18?

That Paul wasn't sent to baptize and therefore baptism isn't necessary for salvation?
I doubt that it is. The apostle paul says that with the heart one believes and is saved. You may say that baptism is still needed for salvation, but i ask you, what baptism? The baptism of water or fire? Do you actually believe a person cannot hear the Word, repent, and find salvation by faith in the Lord...without water baptism? Look at the scripture below. Its by belief in the heart that we are saved.

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
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Protestants partake in the lord's supper just as much as any other denomination. I'm not sure your catholic friends got that information.
It is because protestants don't believe in transubstantiation and the elements have not been consecrated by an ordained priest so that it miraculously becomes the literal body and blood of Christ.
 
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W2L

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Without tradition, you really have no way of knowing that the compilation you call "the Bible" is made up of sacred scripture.

Sure i would. I can clearly read scripture and know its true because God tells me. YES me! HES my teacher :), and i can clearly see that Catholicism isn't always true.
 
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W2L

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John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
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