Are myths the basis of Protestantism?

[Saint_George]

You're just illustrating the point - you don't believe that Christ's blood actually is suffucient to cover the sin of murder - man's effort is required.

So you don't believe that there is a deadly sin?

 

[Kepha]

You're just illustrating the point - you don't believe that Christ's blood actually is suffucient to cover the sin of murder - man's effort is required.

Your missing the point bulldog. You seem to be forgetting about free will. His blood can cover all, but only if we want it to. And by wanting it, we must repent and confess this sin.

 

[holeinone]

no actually, i'm afraid i don't. in my whole time of being a Baptist i've never heard that claim about Peter and Paul. ever.

yes i was. i apologize that you took that as a salm. it wasn't meant as one, only my being in complete shock over what i read.




murder, if confessed and truely repentant for can be forgiven. same with adultery. not believing Jesus is actually in the host? mmmmm that one may be a bit tricky.


i already gave you the book chapter and verse about purgatory and you said that was your heaven where you get your reward

peace be with you

They are not REALLY forgiven. There is no real mercy in the Catholic view.

One confesses their sin and then they pay the penalty for it here and in the hereafter and only then can they stand in Gods presence.

Mercy is giving men what they do not deserve. Having to do a penance here and purgatory after death is earning forgiveness not mercy .

Jesus did not die for your sin, you "pay " for that sin yourself. You earn heaven. That is a salvation of works not grace or mercy

There is no grace and no mercy in "confession" or purgatory .

 

[holeinone]

Your missing the point bulldog. You seem to be forgetting about free will. His blood can cover all, but only if we want it to. And by wanting it, we must repent and confess this sin.

Can you explain to me why any man would not repent a sin if they know their final end?

Might it be they do not hear it or understand it?

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[Bulldog]

So you don't believe that there is a deadly sin?

Your missing the point bulldog. You seem to be forgetting about free will. His blood can cover all, but only if we want it to. And by wanting it, we must repent and confess this sin.

I didn't post to true to debate the idea, I just pointed out that the Roman Catholic view does not view the bleod of Christ as being suffucient without man's effort, an issue that you seem to be conceiving.

 

[lionroar0]

Mercy is giving men what they do not deserve. Having to do a penance here and purgatory after death is earning forgiveness not mercy .

Purgatory is not penance for sins that have been forgiven or unforgiven. Purgatory is a state of the soul that is being purified by an out pouring of the Holy Spirit either in this life or the next. If a persons dies with sins on their souls then that blemish must be taken away and their soul purified. If a person passes away after confessing they may still need to be purified to enter heaven. Nothing impure and imperfect can enter heaven. This is wholy the word of God and His mercy. We have done nothing to deserve this.

Peace



Peace

 

[lionroar0]

There is no grace and no mercy in "confession" or purgatory .

That is your opinion.

Peace

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

That's how I thought when I was a protestant too. However that is not so in the Catholic Church. Individuals can be confused or even sinfully willfull, but ultimately there is only one authentic teaching authority.

The Holy Spirit leads the saved which he indwells.

He is the final teaching authority

Like I said, That's how I thought when I was a protestant too.
Jesus founded His Church to bring us to Him and gave it the Authority, saying "Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven." He also sent the Holy Spirit to guide it. That is why "the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth" as scripture tells us. There is only one authentic, binding teaching authority.

Your brother in Christ

 

[Lynn73]

There is only one authentic, binding teaching authority.

Your brother in Christ

Yes, there is. Too bad we don't agree on what it is.


Ps 119:9 - Show Context Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

Matthew 15:3

• "But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

We could ask the same thing today of many Christians. We simply can't have traditions that transgress or are contradictory to the commandments of God. God breathed His Word through the Prophets and Apostles, and moved them to place it in the form of the written Word, but unless God is continuing to write his book (the scriptures) through leaders of the Church after the Bible was complete, then it is self-evident that giving of the law through the prophets has ended. If it has not, then the Pope must rip out the page of Revelation where God says don't add to His word, throw it away, proclaim the Bible incomplete, and write down every infallible oral tradition he (supposedly) received from God, and place it on the pages of the Bible. Because if true, it is the Word of God and belongs there. If not true, then then the wrath of God abides upon those who place workds into God's mouth. If tradition was on a par with God's Word, then it would be God's Word. In fact, then there would be no oral tradition, because it would join written ordinances.


More than that, we see in scripture that traditions can become corrupt in the congregation of God (even as it certainly had with the Pharisees in Jesus' day -mark 7:9), and so common sense dictates that it simply cannot and must not be trusted as the ultimate authority, as the Word of God is. These doctrines of men are often unjustifiable by scripture, and usually contradictory to it. Not surprisingly, scripture bears out this truth that any tradition or ordinance must be subordinate to the Word.Consider carefully..

Mark 7:7-9

• "howbeit in vain they do worship Me, teaching for Doctrines the commandments of men,
• for laying aside the commandments of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups, and many other such like things you do.
• And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

Clearly, and without ambiguity, Christ is telling them that the tradition of their congregation was subject to the scriptures, and not vice versa. Roman Catholicism has elevated tradition to the place of God’s revealed Word, and Christ Himself rejects such an elevation. Tradition has no authority over the Word of God, but must be subservient to it. Any Christian doctrine which denies this, considering scriptures such as this one, is by definition a pseudo-doctrine. Jesus would not have condemned the congregation for their traditions if the tradition of God's people was to be set on a par with scripture. It made no sense then, and it makes no sense today.

John 5:39

• "Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me."

Why would Jesus be sending them to a non-Authoritative source for truth? ..He wouldn't! He directed them to scripture for the very same reason that the Bereans (acts 17:11) appealed to scripture. Because it (not the leaders or tradition of their congregation) was the ultimate Authority, as it was the infallible Word of God!

Acts 17:2-3

• "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
• Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ."

Some of these men believed because Paul reasoned with them not from his own philosophy, or from oral traditions, or from the words of congregational leaders, he reasoned with them out of the scriptures. Why did Paul have to use the scriptures to prove the true ministry of Christ? It was because both he and those whom he was instructing, understood that scripture is the breath of God and the final authority. It cannot be overridden becasue it is the divine revelation from God.
Reformed Protestantism understands this wisdom most evident in Christ's teachings. These few scriptures I have noted here are by no means an exhaustive list, but just enough to demonstrate that the Lord always appeals to scripture authoritatively, an example for faithful Christians everywhere. Not one single time do we ever see Christ appeal to any oral tradition of the Old Testament congregation, except to condemn it. To hold traditions over God's word is to handle the Word deceitfully. Because if we follow after man's philosophy and tradition over God's Word, then we are not being honest with ourselves concerning the ultimate authority of God's Word.

Matthew 22:29

• "Jesus answered and said unto them, ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

Christ did not direct anyone to secondary explications or extra-Scriptural Hebrew traditions (though plentiful) as authoritative norms but He directed them continually to examine the Word of God itself. He says, "read the scriptures, it is written, search the scriptures, have ye not read, as saith the scriptures, that the scriptures might be fulfilled, as saith Isaiah, etc., etc." In the New testament, the exhortation to the Authority of scripture continues, (Rom. 15:4; Eph. 6:17; II Tim. 3:16; II Pet. 1:19; Rev. 1:3). Scripture commends those who examine the written revelation of God ("open minded, and more noble" -Acts 17:11) and illustrates that Christians have the ability to rightly divide and interpret scripture apart from any (supposed) infallible interpreter whether Church or pontiff (2nd Timothy. 2:15; Acts 17:11). Interpretation must come from the Word of God. As a little girl humbly, honestly and simplistically asked,





"how do we know it's REALLY God's Word, unless we get it from God's Word?"...and all God's people said, ...A M E N ! Out of the mouth of babes!

Copyright ©1998 Tony Warren
For other studies free for the Receiving, Visit our web Site
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from http://mountainretreat.org/articles/sola.html



You believe your church is the final authority, yet if you set aside the Bible what do you have to measure whether or not the things your church is telling you is true? Jesus always pointed to the word, "it is written," he said over and over. The Bible affirms God's word, and condemns tradition that makes the word of God of none effect. Some of you have it backwards and say Scripture must be interpreted in the light of tradition. No, I'm sorry that's not how it is. The thought crosses my mind that since many Catholics have said they're sola ecclesia or that their church has final authority, why not chuck the Bible and just have your church hand out a pamphlet with all the stuff you're supposed to believe? Oh, they did that, the Catechism, right? Why do you even need a Bible then? I continue to choose God's word , the Bible, as he final, authentic, authority. Just as the Bible itself indicates that I should.

 

[kimber1]

um lynn, you really have no need to be so condesecnding. and Catholics do not chuck the Bible out nore ever would. do you know that we have 3, sometimes 4 readings at every Mass from....wait...here it comes... the BIBLE


cristoiglesia, thank you so much for that beautiful testimony!!!!! i would love to continue this conversation via pm because i have some questions regarding what issues you have that kept you from converting to the RCC as you say. i'm assuming since you said you married that's part of it but i'd love to hear more about teh Old Catholics

 

[cristoiglesia]

The thought crosses my mind that since many Catholics have said they're sola ecclesia or that their church has final authority, why not chuck the Bible and just have your church hand out a pamphlet with all the stuff you're supposed to believe? Oh, they did that, the Catechism, right? Why do you even need a Bible then? I continue to choose God's word , the Bible, as he final, authentic, authority. Just as the Bible itself indicates that I should.

You know Lynn, Catholics revere the Bible as the Word of God. The difference is that Catholics do not treat the Bible as an idol. As We can see from Scriptures the Bible only represents part of the Word of God, the written Word. For almost 400 years the Church grew with only apostolic Tradition to lead it. Follow the teaching of Scripture and acccept the whole Word of God, not just the written Word. May the Lord be with you.

In Christ

 

[Kepha]

Can you explain to me why any man would not repent a sin if they know their final end?

Because of Hardness of thier heart.

Can you explain to me why men would refuse to believe in Christ and perish?

I didn't post to true to debate the idea, I just pointed out that the Roman Catholic view does not view the blood of Christ as being sufficient without man's effort, an issue that you seem to be conceiving.

Does one accept Christ without using his free will or is it partly due to an action on our part using our free will to receive the faith? Good works is part of that continuing Grace that naturally flows after recieving the faith, however, we still must do our part and obey God's Graces in order to achieve this.

Jesus always pointed to the word, "it is written," he said over and over.

When Christ said:

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, don't resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and don't turn away him who desires to borrow from you.

What Bible verse was He quoting from to prove His point?

 

[Saint_George]

Can you explain to me why any man would not repent a sin if they know their final end?

People don't always know. A car wreck could lead someone instantly to death with no previous knowledge. Thus leaving unrepented sins. Let me explain my purgatory view once again....

Christians have faith that the Lord Jesus Christ is our savior. We show it to others and spread the word to everyone we see. Faith is like a brilliant white robe that is visible and people flock to. However sometimes while in the robe we trip and fall on our own accord. Ever so slowly this robe starts to get dirt spots (sin). After a short period of time, the once brilliant robe is now covered in dirt. Some people remove their robe, thus condeming themselves. However most of us repent our sins, wheter it is through prayer or confession. Jesus takes our robe and gives us his clean one. We get a fresh start and once again start living our daily lives knowing that soon this robe will be filthy. However we keep it in our prayers that this doesn't happen. But after time, everyones robe gets dirty. No matter how dirty their robe has become, Jesus will take it. Now what happens if in some freak way someone with a dirty robe passes away? When we die, does Jesus dissappear from the equasion? Although our robe is dirty, we are still wearing it. But since we have faith, we will not be automatically condemned, but being dirty, we will not inherit the kingdom of god. This brings us to our conclusion of Purgatory. Jesus's washing machine. This is the "final purification", cleansing us so that we can inherit the kingdom of god.

I am sorry that that was extremely figurative but I find that a very effective way of explaining.

God Bless,
Saint_George

 

[Bulldog]

Does one accept Christ without using his free will or is it partly due to an action on our part using our free will to receive the faith? Good works is part of that continuing Grace that naturally flows after recieving the faith, however, we still must do our part and obey God's Graces in order to achieve this.

Again, you're missing the point.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

That is why we say Sola Scriptura with conviction! Anyone who preaches or teaches contrary to scripture is not acceptable no matter what his ranking among authority figures is.

 

[Lynn73]

Well said.

 

[FreeinChrist]

That is why we say Sola Scriptura with conviction! Anyone who preaches or teaches contrary to scripture is not acceptable no matter what his ranking among authority figures is.

Yep!!

 

[cristoiglesia]

That is why we say Sola Scriptura with conviction! Anyone who preaches or teaches contrary to scripture is not acceptable no matter what his ranking among authority figures is.

Blessings all,

How would a person who believes in Sola Scriptura know if someone is preaching or teaching contrary to Scripture. You see, Scripture is only part of the Word of God and is a part of the apostolic Tradition handed down to the Church. To understand Scripture properly one must also apply Tradition to that understanding, otherwise one is making the decision of Contrarity on only part of the facts, or in this case only the written Word of God. I believe and I think most reasonable people would agree that judgement based on all of the facts is more reliable and intrinsically virtuous. Don't you think?

In Christ

 

[Egghead]

Just a thought....




3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
2 Timothy 4:3-4



"Thus says the Lord: 'Stand in the ways and see,
And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it;

Then you will find rest for your souls.

But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’"



Jeremiah 6:16

Saint_George



​

As a counter-question, who might be the ''wolves'' Paul spoke of that would strike the flock from within, after he departed, teaching distortions?

They "seemed'' to be christians, yet obviously taught things that Paul and our trusted apostles and our Lord didnt?

Any ideas?

 

[Saint_George]

That is why we say Sola Scriptura with conviction! Anyone who preaches or teaches contrary to scripture is not acceptable no matter what his ranking among authority figures is.

But who decides what is contrary to scripture?

Saint_George