Are Mormons Christians?

[Etsi]

The Creed was only changed once. The Roman Catholic Church added a phrase to change a meaning. The Eastern Orthodox, something that Joseph Smith would not have been familiar with, continued with the Creed in it's original form. That is it. There were no other changes and both of these were known.

The Mormon site notates at least one NON-Orthodox (aka a small sect that was heretical...basically they did not belong to the early church, but rather were trying to put their own spin on things...kinda like the Mormons). Dealing with all these little schisms doesn't prove their point. Dealing with ORTHODOX Christianity would be more honest. If I wanted to be dishonest, I'd just pull out every "Mormon" fringe fanatic and declare that they represented the whole of Mormonism. If I want to have an honest debate, I'll deal with the Mormon church itself and directly with what they have put out. Essentially, they are picking on a few heretical fringe groups, not the actual Church and what it believes.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Though the modern calendar is obviously centred on a major event in Christianity, I prefer BCE and CE; they're more secular and don't carry unnecessary religious overtones.

MY BROTHER,cool

Obviously, Christians prefer the opposite for the same reason.

I've been reading Mormon sites (if only to get a balanced perspective), and the running theme to their counter-argument to your Nicene argument is that the Creed is not as unified and coherent as it's made out to be. Rather, they say it has evolved and changed continually since the time of Christ.
This site has three articles on the Nicene Creed written by a Mormon. Interesting stuff.

i am not sure what fuels the belated Mormon push for "respectability" in the eyes of orthodox Christian believers, but i would think a neutral web site--of which there are many with no axes to grind--would be a better source of accurate and unbiased information on the historical development of Christian Creeds.

However, they are correct in that the Creeds have evolved through the ages, the primary reason being to respond to new heresies which crop up from time to time and are even being recycled--by Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others--as we speak. Examples would be dealing with questions regarding the "Virgin Birth", Christ's Deity, Gnosticism, etc. In these instances, the Creeds were not so much "changed" as supplemented as the Church grew and the need for clarification of beliefs cropped up in the Church due to heretical teachings from various sources.

Might i say that i find Mormon teaching very "interesting" also, and, back in a day, i was a member of The Church of Later Day Saints for about 3 years. i have no animosity towards the "church" and left for the simple reason that God showed me the truth of orthodox Christian teachings and the twisted and perverted teaching which Mormons have been led astray into following.

Speaking of changes--you might try Googling "Changes in Mormon doctrines" and note the many changes that have occurred in their beliefs--and even in their "inerrant" "scriptures" over the years in response to government and social pressures--teachings on the inferiority of non-caucasians, the desirability of plural marriages, etc.

Finally, in closing, i keep noticing--and being bothered--by the following quote on your signature line:

The basis of Christianity is the teachings of Christ... What does Christ say? Love God and Love Others. But that's not what every Christian does.
- Anon​

The statement is true enough--unfortunately--but has nothing to do with the existence of God, the Lordship of Jesus Christ, or the truth of Biblical teachings. As Scripture points out, "What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? Not at all! LET GOD BE TRUE, AND EVERY MAN A LIAR."(Romans 3:3, 4) For every scandalous "preacher" on so-called "christian T.V." giving new meaning to the word "hypocrisy", there is a Mother Teresa out in the streets advancing God's Kingdom by their practical demonstration of God's Love. A balanced outlook, as you say, is important!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Wiccan_Child]

No matter what my opinion maybe, the fact is that Belief in Jesus as the Christ is mandatory in order for one to be considered a "Christ-ian." As i have demonstrated, Mormons in fact do not See Jesus as The Christ or The One and only Son of God who died for the sins of Humanity.

You may have an opinion on this but as i said, opinions (mine yours or anyone else) do not matter. what does is the reality and the truth in where one places His or Her Faith. If your faith is placed in Jesus as the living Son of the 1 true living God, who was born of the virgin Mary, lived as a man, and died for your sins, then you can be considered a Christian. Otherwise even if you consider yourself a christian, in truth you are not. It will be in the truth of one's faith where one's eternal destiny will lie. Not their opinion, or what they (or you) wish to call themselves.

But that is an opinion: it is your opinion that, if your faith is placed in Jesus etc etc, you are a legitimate Christian. I happen to agree, but it's by no means written in stone. There are, for instance, various religious groups who place their faith in Jesus but wouldn't consider themselves Christians (nor would Christians consider them one).

on the contrary:

Because you have not backed up any of these "statements" with Mormon or Jehovah's wittiness doctrine, nor any other source or reference material, these statements can be considered your "beliefs." granted they may not be your deeply held personal convictions, never the less these words are yours. Unless you plagiarized these words, they can be attributed to your beliefs.
Otherwise why would you represent something to be true if you didnot believe it in the first place?

If you want to quibble, then yes, they are my beliefs. I believe that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves to be Christians (or rather, to have a scripturally sound belief in Christ). I believe that Mormons have encountered anti-Christian and anti-Mormon arguments before. But these things are simply common sense: do you deny that Mormons affirm that they are Christians? Do you deny that anti-Mormon sentiment has been directed at Mormons?

This thread is more about a young man wishing to stir a religious pot to see who comes to the surface, so that he make knock down all who rise to defend their beliefs, with secular reasoning and a liberal philosophy of tolerance, and uniformity. Sort of a philosophical christian hunt.

Do I smell a persecution complex?

If this were indeed about the Views of the Christians (Self proclaimed or not) then I should say, you should have had a smaller, to no part at all in the rebuttals. As it is, this thread looks to be a way for a young man to sharpen new ideas on an old way of thinking, and believing.

I will respond to people's posts, if only to get a better idea of where they're coming from. To ephraimanesti, for instance, I merely commented that I had read a Mormon site with counter-arguments to his arguments. I was not affirming such a rebuttle, simply pointing out that it exists.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say: "Thank you for giving the Facts as you see them."

What is that, if not an opinion?

Because again opinions here don't really matter. Because there is a very specific outline in which God will recognize a Christian. Anyone deviating from this "outline" will not be considered a follower of Christ, and therefore can not be considered a "Christ-ian."

I daresay Mormons would disagree with you on who God considers to be a Christian. You can declare that some objective standard exists, and that you have it, and that therefore Mormons aren't Christians; that's fine, that satisfies the OP. But all I'm saying is that it's not as clear-cut as you make out, if only because there are other groups who would disagree with you (Mormons being the key group here).

 

[ephraimanesti]

Do I smell a persecution complex?

MY BROTHER,

No--i don't think that is the issue. i do not believe that the Truth can ever be persecuted by unbelief. Darkness, in fact, makes Light shine more clearly.

My question to clarify would be--why stir up this little tempest in a teapot in the first place. As an atheist, you have no belief in God, which is the foundation of all the questions that you raise--on behalf of others or merely hypothetically for your own amusement. If you reject the basis of all this--God--why bother investigating the details which follow from this most basic of all beliefs?

You will probably answer something along the lines of, "To find out what people believe and why." But again, what difference does it make in regards to "what and why" if the REASON and MOTIVATION and GOAL has already been rejected?

Gathering information to allow oneself to make an informed choice is one thing; "gathering information" when the choice has already been made is another. What up?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[seashale76]

I believe that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves to be Christians (or rather, to have a scripturally sound belief in Christ). I believe that Mormons have encountered anti-Christian and anti-Mormon arguments before. But these things are simply common sense: do you deny that Mormons affirm that they are Christians? Do you deny that anti-Mormon sentiment has been directed at Mormons?

I know that they do claim the Christian label however, I also know that every time I've spoken to an LDS 18-year-old elder, if they truly believed that we believed the same things then they wouldn't waste their time trying to come to my door (and stand outside public toilet stalls-yes, I had a girl do this to me on a university campus) to convert me to their faith. I was not feeling great amounts of pro-Mormon sentiment after being accosted outside of a public toilet and seeing her shoes on the other side waiting for me to finish my business, but I attempted to be polite even still.

Did you know that Islam was considered a Christian heresy at one point? I see no difference when it comes to the LDS faith. They have different holy books, they use some of the same words and mean vastly different things, they have beliefs and practices that are not only extremely different from but at odds with my faith, and they believe that my faith is wrong. We do not share the same religion. I had two extremely young elders appear at my door on the 23rd of December. I told them that I was happy with my religion and they didn't begin to deny that my religion and theirs wasn't the same. One time when I told them that I'm an Orthodox Christian, one even said, "Oh, you're part of the original Church." To which I responded, "Yes, I am." Even after that though, his mouth started moving again to convert me to his faith.

Their missionaries know that Orthodox Christianity and the LDS faith aren't the same. I know it too. If it were the same then we'd profess and confess the same faith, use the same scriptures, attend the same churches, be baptized in the same manner, have the same bishops, and we'd be united by the Eucharist. I've told you before that it all goes back to communion/eucharist. If one's faith is enough to keep them from partaking of the Eucharist (for their protection), then that faith is different enough to not be part of the Church of Christ.

 

[drich0150]

But that is an opinion: it is your opinion that, if your faith is placed in Jesus etc etc, you are a legitimate Christian. I happen to agree, but it's by no means written in stone.

But it is "written in stone." There are many many churches with the Apostles creed literally written in stone, and placed in a place of prominence for all to see. This creed is where i took my requirements on what it is to be considered "Christian."

This Fact or creed is what takes it out of the realm of personal feeling and opinion.

There are, for instance, various religious groups who place their faith in Jesus but wouldn't consider themselves Christians (nor would Christians consider them one).

what Group of believers Believe in the creed and yet do not consider themselves to be "christian?"

do you deny that Mormons affirm that they are Christians?

Yes, because Mormons believe that they are the only form of "Christianity." And as such only the true christians will wear the name of Mormon. This is not a scriptural belief, it is a book of Mormon belief. They on the surface wish to be lumped in with all Christians, but behind closed doors teach that theirs is the only true form of Christianity or rather Mormonism.
So either way from a Christian stand point or a Mormon stand point they teach that our version of "Christianity" and theirs are not the same.

If it were the same, then they wouldn't need the Watch tower teachings, or anything from the book of Mormon.

Do you deny that anti-Mormon sentiment has been directed at Mormons?

"Do I smell a persecution complex?"

I will respond to people's posts, if only to get a better idea of where they're coming from.

I didn't say you weren't allowed to respond in your own thread, just that you represented your thread as a platform where Christians could give their views on the matter. I simply pointed out if this were the case, and this thread was indeed about what Christians thought, then you would have to take a lessor role. My point was to shed some light on what this thread was actually about, and not what you advertised it to be.

I daresay Mormons would disagree with you on who God considers to be a Christian.

In that a Mormonism is the only true form of Christianity. Which in of itself should tell them something of their beliefs. If they were truly "Christian" Then Why not call themselves Christian? Or name themselves after the one they love? Why the need to label themselves after the prophet that supposedly documented Christianity in the Americas?

Their whole system of belief is based on the works of a man, (Mormon the Prophet) and not God Himself. I believe That's why there system of belief gives honor, and title to the works of Mormon, rather than God himself.

But all I'm saying is that it's not as clear-cut as you make out, if only because there are other groups who would disagree with you (Mormons being the key group here).

But there is! and the Apostles Creed condenses it this clear cut list of beliefs. All of which are taken straight from scripture. This is why the Mormons supplement the Bible with the book of Mormon. According to them where ever the book of Mormon and the Bible conflict The Book of Mormon should take precedence.

Just guess where some of the more radical changes in the book of Mormon take place. This is what separates them from us. The Bible lays out a "plan of salvation" basically what it takes to become a Christian. The book of Mormon changes or "amends" that plan. When you change the "core" beliefs of Christianity you cease being a Christian at that point. In this case because you substitute christian doctrine with a Mormon Doctrine you become a Mormon, and cease being a Christian.

If they wanted to be Christian then why not follow the teachings of Christianity? Why follow the teachings of other "Prophets."

 

[acorn_777]

Why or why not?

Remember, the rules say you can't state that a particular person isn't a Christian, but I think we're allowed to discuss whether a group is Christian or not.

Any form of Christianity would be communicated via that person's bias of doctrine and belief.

The definition of a Christian is a simple, ..anyone who follows the teachings of Chist, or follower of Christ.

All denominations have a different view of what a True Christian group, following etc may entail. This has been the dispute since the beginning.

The Nicene Creed says that Christ was born of the essence of God the Father.

If God is a spirit, and His spirit was upon Christ, then Christ was God in spirit. IMO, that is why Christ said the Kingdom of God was upon them; because God's spirit was upon Jesus, which meant that the kingdom of God was upon them.

Most non-Christians that I know usually say that Christ was like any other Greek god, BUT the difference is that He wasn't like any other Greek god. He was a Jew.

This made everything different. If he was a Greek, Do you think the Christian movement would've spread as much as it did?

I say no, just as Apollo fell short as it is recorded in Greek Mythology. The just on the Earth distracted Apollo according to ancient writings. This actually is what propelled the further persecution of Christians.

Now, was it really about who was Greek or who was Jewish?

I say no, it was about who was right, who delivered. And, Christ delivered according to the history, and still is delivering to this day in miraculous ways in different regions groups and lives.

So, I ask you this question. Was Jim Jones following Christian? They professed Christ as their king, walked the walk, talked the talked, then, ......the following confined and led to people killed.
I say being labeled a Christian group has nothing to do with anything in this world;and nothing else matters other than following the teachings of Jesus Christ and submerging oneself into that focal point.

 

[98cwitr]

MY SISTER,

The basic requirement for a group to be considered "Christian" is that they accept and subscribe to the Nicene Creed. Mormon beliefs do not adhere to this Creed--ergo, they cannot be considered Christian.

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen

The most obvious difference in this regard is their conception of the Trinity as three separate individuals acting in concert rather than a single triune Being composed of one essence in three hypostases.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

I dont believe in the Nicene Creed word for word...

1. I don't believe in all things invisible...ergo I don't believe that there is a Cookie Monster

2. I don't believe, have faith in, or even trust the Catholic or Apostolic churches

3. I don't believe that baptism is remission of sin, no act by man can relieve himself of sin, only God can.

other than those points, the Nicene Creed sounds good to me.