Are Mormon's Christian?

[Brennin]

New discoveries are being made all the time... with plenty 'evidences' being found in support of the book of mormon 'claim'.

That is false (thanks for the laugh, though).

 

[DjDan]

I thought you might find this interesting:

Further insight into the tragic loss of ancient records from the Americas is given by Michael D. Coe and Justin Kerr, The Art of the Maya Scribe (New York: Harry N. Abrams, 1998, p. 169):

[font=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]At one time, most Maya calligraphy must have been contained in books. But out of thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of manuscripts once extant during the Classic Maya apogee, none remain. For the post-Classic period, we can again only guess at the total number produced, but it was doubtless greatly diminished from what it had once been before the Classic downfall. There is no way of knowing how many were burned by Franciscan missionaries like Diego de Landa, but the act of destruction was remarkably complete: we have only four surviving pre-Conquest native Maya books. . . . For only one other calligraphic tradition - that of ancient Greece and Rome - has the loss of contemporary manuscripts been as severe. [/size][/font]​

Of the surviving Maya area writings, six distinct scripts have been identified, and scholars are only in the early stages of deciphering two or three of them. We may know what some ancient cities were called by their inhabitants at the time of Cortes, but do we know anything concrete about the era 600 B.C. to 400 A.D.? Do we know the place names that the ancients used? Do we know any of the names of those people - as they called themselves, not as the later Aztecs or Mayans called them? The Book of Mormon is from the ancient New World. The problem is not that nothing correlates with the Book of Mormon, the problem is that we still know almost nothing about the time period covered by the Book of Mormon.

 

[DjDan]

That is false (thanks for the laugh, though).

why do you say that? At this minute.. i'm looking at a site full of them.

 

[DjDan]

just a little more:

When we get to the New World, things are more difficult. Until a couple decades ago, we didn't even have good maps of the area. Hundreds of new and often mysterious cities have been discovered, with names that are typically assigned by the discoverer. We are in a state of infancy, and that infancy will last long because most of the peoples and cultures on the American continents did not leave written records.

Considering that the notion is that Joseph Smith was author of the book of mormon and made up everything... it's amazing that we should even find one single fact about the geography of the [said] nephite land (as written in the bom) to be true! Joseph Smith obviously wasn't there... and he wasn't educated to know anything about it. So.... how would he know anything about the landscape etc. of MesoAmerica??

(yet the book of mormon talks so plainly about it)

 

[Brennin]

why do you say that? At this minute.. i'm looking at a site full of them.

Because I am familiar with Mormon apologetics and I know how vacuous it is.

 

[isaiah53five]

Paul to the Galations in regards to distorting the word of God.

Gal 1: 6.-9 ...... I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him that called you into grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching you a gospel contrary to the one you have received, let him be accursed.

Peace be with you!

 

[evange]

[font=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]At one time, most Maya calligraphy must have been contained in books. But out of thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of manuscripts once extant during the Classic Maya apogee, none remain. For the post-Classic period, we can again only guess at the total number produced, but it was doubtless greatly diminished from what it had once been before the Classic downfall. There is no way of knowing how many were burned by Franciscan missionaries like Diego de Landa, but the act of destruction was remarkably complete: we have only four surviving pre-Conquest native Maya books. . . . For only one other calligraphic tradition - that of ancient Greece and Rome - has the loss of contemporary manuscripts been as severe. [/size][/font]​

Didn't the mayans not have a writen script? They used hyroglyfs (sp?) and didn't keep much history?

 

[MarsHill]

We live in an age where genetic testing is possible. I know CSI is far-fetched in many areas but DNA testing is now valid. The belief that the American Indians were descendants of the Israelites seemed at least possible before the advent of genetic testing. It is easy to make claims when there is no possible way to verify those claims. Today we have verified those claims concerning the American Indians and the Israelites. The test results found that 99.6% of Native Americans have an Asiatic descendancy not Israeli.


According to Brigham Young (the 2nd prophet) the God of the Bible was once man with flesh and bone. He was not the first God. There has been an infinite regress of gods. The question I want answered is-- Who was the first God and why have we chosen to worship this one? Why not worship the one's before him if the God of the Bible was not the first?

For the sake of argument I will quote from the book of Mormon.
2 Nephi 25:23 states "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
They got it partially right. The "....after all we can do" causes problems for me. Again, I have questions--- How do you know when you have done enough to get into heaven? How do you know when you have done all you can do?"
You cannot be both saved by grace and also by an unknown amount of good works. How can you ever be sure that you have done all you can do? What happens if you die before you have done all you can do?

As Christians we are saved by grace through faith. Sure we do good works because we are showing the example of Christ. But, you must realize those good works do not save us. It is our faith in Christ that saves us. It is an absolute gift from God. If there were strings attached such as "you must also do good works" then it would not be a true gift. It would not be salvation by grace.

To some of the other statements made out here that say, "If you think you are a Christian then you are." Do you really have enough faith to think that will work when you are standing before God at the judgement? Jesus Christ defines what Christianity is, not us. Just because we do not like how He has defined it does not give us the right to change it to fit our own needs or agenda or to promote our own school of thought or religion.

Whether or not Mormons practice polygamy today is not the point to argue. If it was banned then it was banned. The problem I have with it is that it was condoned in the early days. If it was originally accepted (and apparently it was or there would be no need to ban it) then why was it accepted? Does that mean that a prophet of God can be wrong? A recognized prophet practiced it. Why? Who told him to practice that which is now un-acceptable? How can it be right during the early days of Mormonism and wrong later on? Do Mormon morals change? If he was wrong about polygamy then maybe he was wrong about everything else he taught as well. Even if you do not want to go that far then you have to at least admit that being absolutely wrong about one thing puts you at risk for being wrong about some of your other beliefs.

Mormonism uses Christian terms but does not use traditional Christian definitions. Therein lies the danger to us and them.

 

[peepnklown]

Please, each Christian define Christianity, then list the beliefs that you believe are not Christian (toward Mormonism), and provide scripture support.

Anyone…?

For the sake of argument I will quote from the book of Mormon.

“2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” The phrase, “after all we can do” can be seen different ways but the main phrase tells us, “for we know that it is by GRACE that we are saved.” It doesn’t say anything about “works” in the verse (in context to works being the method of being saved). “2 Nephi 25:25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.” Now, look at this phrase, “and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith.” It seems pretty clear, that faith is the key.

 

[S Walch]

Anyone…?

Yes, this is the third time I've posted the link below.

Please... list the commandments... and i'll tell you wether or not I follow them. Then... together we can conclude on wether or not I am a Christian.

Oh for crying out loud.

This is the third time I'm posting this webpage up for you to read.

Either read it so we can continue, or ignore it and so we can't.

http://www.carm.org/lds/compare.htm



Here, this next one is what Mormonism teaches (which I'm sure you probably know)

If you disagree with what is written on this page - back up with what it should say.

http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_doctrines.htm

Compare with christian Doctrine:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine.htm

 

[DjDan]

walch... nothing to say of yourself? all you do is post links to an anti-mormon website. carms. That doesn't really help much. I'm asking you, and i think peep is asking you to make it clear in words what makes a christian. We've already established that the definition of 'christian' is totally unrelated to the nicean creed.

list the commandments.... liste the teachings of Jesus... and i'll tell you if i agree with them or not.

 

[MarsHill]

Peepnklown- Please explain, "......after all we can do". Do Mormons not believe you must do good works in order to enter into their celestial realm? If they believe that they will become a god then what do you need to do in order to become one? You can say that the main component is salvation through grace but actually believing and practicing that is another thing when it comes to the LDS church.

Your personal information states that you are an atheist. How does an atheist become and expert on Mormon theology? If you know for sure that there is no God then why are you studying a relgion that claims that are many gods? Maybe you are not a true atheist. What is your view?

 

[DjDan]

Peepnklown- Please explain, "......after all we can do". Do Mormons not believe you must do good works in order to enter into their celestial realm? If they believe that they will become a god then what do you need to do in order to become one? You can say that the main component is salvation through grace but actually believing and practicing that is another thing when it comes to the LDS church.

Your personal information states that you are an atheist. How does an atheist become and expert on Mormon theology? If you know for sure that there is no God then why are you studying a relgion that claims that are many gods? Maybe you are not a true atheist. What is your view?

I know that this isn't directed at me... but let me just make a comment.

Don't christians believe that you must do good works to enter into heaven? I know that by grace you are saved.... but then what is the judgement all about? What are you judged on if not your works?

Same with Mormonism.
We are saved by grace
But at judgement... we are also judged on our works.

 

[MarsHill]

Christians are judged to determine a level of reward in heaven not salvation. We will enter into the gates of heaven with gladness because we have been saved solely through faith. That gives us a spot in heaven. We do not believe that we "must do good works" in order to get into heaven.

For the Christian good works are a sign that we are already "saved". We are going to heaven solely based on our faith in the redeeming work of the cross. Please do not confuse the two. Our good works and living a Godly lifestyle have wonderful benefits. Afterall, only God knows how we should live our lives. He knows what is best for us. We do not know what is best for us. Our hearts are desperately wicked so we cannot follow what our heart tells us to do.

We do good works because we are Christians. Those good works do not allow us to enter into heaven. If good works allowed us to enter in then we are not saved "by grace through faith". Again I have to ask how do we ever gain assurance that we are truly saved and are able to enter into heaven if we are trying to figure out how many good works we must do to get in? Only our belief in what Christ did on the cross and at the tomb can do that.
As one man put it, "Dogs bark because they are dog. They do not bark to become dogs!"
In the same sense we can say, "Christians do good works because they are Christians. They do not perform good works to "become" Christians."

You stated that as a Mormon you are saved by grace but at the judgement your works will be measured. In the LDS world what happens if you did not do enough good works? Will you be denied your celestial kingdom? Will you not gain that planet that your heart desires?

 

[MarsHill]

I would also like to point out a verse in the book of Matthew. It is found in Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I (Jesus) will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"

What types of people would be doing the above mentioned works? All of those things appear to be works that only church people would be involved in. If they are doing all of these wonderful works in the name of Jesus and supposedly for Jesus then why does Jesus then look at them at the judgement and say "Depart from me I never knew you?" These people were doing good works solely to obtain salvation but they were obviously doing it without "faith" in Jesus Christ. They were attending church and doing good works to "earn" their salvation. It is obvious that Jesus was not impressed. Their many good works did not save them. Jesus saw their works and as good as their works may have been it was their lack of saving faith that destroyed them. They could do all of the good works they wanted but without grace and faith in the resurrection of Christ then they will never be saved. Works DO NOT SAVE US!

I keep having to ask the question--- if works help to save us then how many good things must we do to gain salvation? You can NEVER know.

I John 5:13 states---"These things I have written unto you who "believe" in the name of the Son of God, that you may "know" that you have eternal life........" If we are saved partially by works or completely by works then we can never "know" that we are saved. John says we can "know".
That is what I desire for you and others out here. You shouldn't have to go from day to day wondering if you are going to make it in the end. That's a desperate way to have to live. God wants you to have assurance and that assurance comes from placing your faith in the blood of Christ and believing that His tomb is empty due to the fact that He is risen.
Continue to do good works because it is an outward sign that Christ dwells with you but do not do them in hopes that it will gain something for you. That is self-centered. That is religion at its finest. It must be about Jesus and not about us.

 

[DjDan]

Christians are judged to determine a level of reward in heaven not salvation.

This is also the same for Mormons

We will enter into the gates of heaven with gladness because we have been saved soley through faith. That gives us a spot in heaven. We do not believe that we "must do good works" in order to get into heaven.

same with mormons

For the Christian good works are a sign that we are already "saved".

same with Mormons

We are going to heaven solely based on our faith in the redeeming work of the cross. Please do not confuse the two. Our good works and living a Godly lifestyle have wonderful benefits. Afterall, only God knows how we should live our lives. He knows what is best for us. We do not know what is best for us. Our hearts are desperately wicked so we cannot follow what our heart tells us to do.

We do good works because we are Christians. Those good works do not allow us to enter into heaven. If good works allowed us to enter in then we are not saved "by grace through faith".

same with Mormons

Again I have to ask how do we ever gain assurance that we are truly saved and are able to enter into heaven if we are trying to figure out how many good works we must do to get in? Only our belief in what Christ did on the cross and at the tomb can do that.

agreed. same with Mormons.

As one man put it, "Dogs bark because they are dog. They do not bark to become dogs!"
In the same sense we can say, "Christians do good works because they are Christians. They do not perform good works to "become" Christians."

agreed. same with Mormons

You stated that as a Mormon you are saved by grace but at the judgement your works will be measured. In the LDS world what happens if you did not do enough good works? Will you be denied your celestial kingdom? Will you not gain that planet that your heart desires?

If you do not do enough good works, you will enter into the kingdom of glory, according to the works that you did do. It's as simple as that.

All kingdoms, are kingdoms of glory.

We are saved through christ. saved by his grace, and like christians, are level of heaven is determined by the works that we do.

I'm happy to see that we agree MarsHill. We're not so different afterall.

Does this mean that Mormons are Christians too?

 

[DjDan]

Works DO NOT SAVE US!

Absolutely! It is by grace that we are saved... after all we can do.

It is grace that saves us (through faith).
It is Jesus Christ, the son of God that saves us.

All we do with our works... is make our faith alive!
For faith without works is dead, being alone.

MarsHill... we agree again. Isn't this sweet?

 

[MarsHill]

We may not be as close to the same as you think but we may be making some progress. Is this "kingdom of glory" really the ultimate outcome that you desire as a Mormon or is their something better? All believing Christians go to the same heaven to be with God not to become a god. By definition God is eternal, omnipotnent, personal, united, and transcendant. God is "not" a person, limited by the laws of the universe, limited in knowledge, localized, changeable, or one of many. If God is limited then what makes him God? Why would you want to worship a god like that? If you can become the same as God or the same or better than Jesus in the celestial realm then what makes them worthy of worship now? You're not God if there is something better than or equal to you.

There have been many things that have not been addressed from my original post plus other issues. Are there many gods and can you become one? Which god was the first? How do we know which one is worthy of worship? Will you one day be considered worthy of worship?
If Jesus is not God then why is He doing the judging and why is He worthy of worship? etc, etc...

To the Mormon church we are not the same. Those of us who claim to be Christians are not really accepted into your belief system. Joseph Smith believed and taught that all of todays Christian denominations were of the devil and were corrupt and not to be considered as part of the true church. This may not be a public teaching but it does appear to be private teaching of the LDS church. The Mormons actually began persecuting us and that is something that is difficult to appreciate.

If the Mormon church is the true church then where were they before Joseph Smith? Why did the true church not exist from the time of Christ to present day? There appears to be a large lagtime or gap. Do you see any direct teachings held by the early church in the New Testament that are the same as what the LDS church teaches today? Why do most of your teachings come from the Book of Mormon rather than from the Bible of the Christian church? It is quite convenient for a founder to say, " Well we believe in the Bible but only as it was "originally written". Since we do not have the Bible as it was originally written then what we do have is corrupt. " That opens the door for anyone to make their own Bible and make any type of claim that they want and call it Truth. It's easy to say "We do not have the entire truth in the Bible so I will clarify what has been corrupted by writing a new story." Leaning over the Book of Mormon and having a so-called "burning in the bosom" does not make it true anymore than having a burning in the bosom while watching "Gone With the Wind" or "Star Wars" makes it true. TRUTH is not based upon feeling or emotion. TRUTH is TRUTH whether or not we have any feelings or emotions about it at all. Emotion cannot be our basis for determining what is true or false.

 

[urnotme]

walch... nothing to say of yourself? all you do is post links to an anti-mormon website. carms. That doesn't really help much. I'm asking you, and i think peep is asking you to make it clear in words what makes a christian. We've already established that the definition of 'christian' is totally unrelated to the nicean creed.

list the commandments.... liste the teachings of Jesus... and i'll tell you if i agree with them or not.

The correct definition of the word is one who is a follower of the Jesus Christ of the Bible. For almost two thousand years it has never had a reference to anyone other that the historical Jesus Christ of the New Testament http://www.seafox.com/mormons.html

Why Mormons Are Not Christian.

First: Mormons do not follow or believe in the historic Jesus Christ of the Bible, but rather in a difference Jesus. This is why most Biblical Christians emphatically insist that Mormons are not Christians. Let me explain.

The god of the Mormons is not the God of the Bible. To the Mormons, Jesus is the firstborn son of an exalted "man" who became the god of this world. The man-god of Mormonism was made the god of this world because of his good works on another planet somewhere out in the universe. He "earned" godhood, and was thus appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth. The Mormon god of this world was a man, like all men, who became a god. This is what the celestial marriage and the temple vows are all about. LDS men, by doing their temple work, are striving for exaltation by which they, too, shall one day become gods. Their wives will be the mother goddesses of "their" world and with their husband will produce the population of their world. This is the Mormon doctrine of "eternal progression."

Note the following quote from the Mormon Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, page 123, made by the LDS Apostle Orson Hyde:

"Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, a mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point were He is."

Lorenzo Snow, late President of the Mormon church, made this statement in the second verse of his famous poem entitled, "Man's Destiny":

"As Abra'm, Isaac, Jacob, too, babes, then men--to gods they grew. As man now is, our God once was; As now God is, so man may be,-- Which doth unfold man's destiny. . ."

The God of the Bible is not an exalted man. The God of the Bible is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. The Bible says He is the only God and there are no other Gods. He had no beginning or end and he is a spirit being and never was a man.

Note the clear teaching of the Bible as to who the real God is:

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Psalms 102:26-27, "They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end."

Isaiah 43:10-11, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 44:8, "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Isaiah 45:21-22, "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."

Jeremiah 23:24, "Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD."

Malachi 3:6, "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

John 1:16-18, "And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

John 4:24, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Romans 1:22, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

1 Timothy 1:17, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."

1 Timothy 6:16, "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Clearly, Mormonism's god is not the God of Christianity who is the God revealed to us in the Bible. The Mormon god is a god formed from the imaginations of Joseph Smith, and in truth is a false, non-existent god or idol.

Second: The Jesus Christ of Mormonism is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

The Mormon Jesus is the son of this man-god. The Mormon Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and according to LDS teaching, he married several of the Marys of the New Testament. He is not, to the LDS church, "God incarnate" as the Bible plainly states. Clearly, the Mormon god and Jesus are not the true.


Don''t take it too hard, it seems like everybody is a cult now days. The catholic church is the biggest one out there depending on which preacher you listen to.

 

[Eldy]

The op asks if Mormons are Christian.


My response would be that no, not all Mormons are Christian. But then again not all people warming pews in an evangelical church are Christian either. Are there Mormon Christians? Absolutely.