Are modern Bible translations as good as the old ones? KJV versus ESV versus NKJV

createdtoworship

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It was just an example of where the Greek has no direct equivalent in English.



In the context of Romans 3:3-4, absolutely not! (ESV) is probably the best answer to the question Paul poses: "What then? If some were unfaithful, will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? Absolutely not!"

Certainly not! (NKJV) is almost as good. But the words chosen to translate mē genoito (a Greek answer to a Greek question) have to make sense as an English answer to an English question.

but "NOT AT ALL" is not the same as "MAY IT NEVER BE." You said both were good translations, so you admit that the NIV is the worst? Because it does not fit the others? Then you prove that dynamic equivalent fails where the other literal translations were better.
 
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Radagast

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but "NOT AT ALL" is not the same as "MAY IT NEVER BE." You said both were good translations, so you admit that the NIV is the worst? Because it does not fit the others? Then you prove that dynamic equivalent fails where the other literal translations were better.

No, I never said that at all. In fact, "not at all!" (NIV) is just as good as "certainly not!" (NKJV).

And you're missing the point: the most "dynamic" of the 6 translations I listed is actually the KJV.
 
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Dr. Jack

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saying that this is common knowledge is innacurate. A typical christian has no idea of greek or hebrew. In someplaces anthropos could refer to mankind, or people. I admit that. But also in many places it refers to men:

"men of this world or generation, wicked men (Matt. 10:17; 17:22; Luke 6:22, 26). In Matt. 6:5, 14–16; 7:12; 19:12; 23:4; Luke 6:31; 11:46, other men, others. See also Sept.: Judg. 16:7; 18:28."

Zodhiates, S. (2000). The complete word study dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers.

but in your defense I doubt that the people who made that image attacking modern translations bothered to look it up in a greek dictionary.

So because of this, I will remove the original picture.

I have dozens more to share, so I am not done, but I need to scan them and research them before just assuming they did their greek homework.

thanks for talk.

however if you do presume to be more spiritual because of your knowledge of greek, I will block further conversations with you.

It took me a whole five minutes to look it up, but still the average christian does not know greek. And I don't think it is all that important.

Like I have said before if you have a solid translation, and not the NIV which removes thousands of words, or other modern translations that are missing thousands of words, if you have good translation based on good manuscripts, then no, you don't need knowledge of greek. Because what you read is what the greek says for the most part, that is what a word for word translation is. However if you use dynamic equivalent, then you don't get that accuracy.

dynamic equivalent works better in hebrew than greek, thats for sure but I don't like it as a general principle. If there is a word that is closer to the greek than the word I am using, why would I seek to make another equivalence?
Okay, maybe I should have said, Understanding "genders" in relation to nouns in Greek is common knowledge for those of us who have learned Greek along the path of our Christian ministry.

Yes, I agree, most Christians do not learn Greek. But IF one brings Greek into the equation, or claims to be able to defend their position from the Greek, it is reasonable (at least to me) that one should understand the very basics of Greek 101!

Does Greek make a person a more "spiritual" person? No. But it may give them a bit of technical knowledge of the words in the underlying Greek text upon which our English Bibles are based.
 
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createdtoworship

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No, I never said that at all. In fact, "not at all!" (NIV) is just as good as "certainly not!" (NKJV).

And you're missing the point: the most "dynamic" of the 6 translations I listed is actually the KJV.
no one said we should use dynamic of an english translation, of course we should use dynamic in comparison on greek not english. you point fails to make any sense, I repeatedly have shown you how two of your " good translations" contradict. So again your point fails. I am not going to talk about this particular piece of evidence as it is been refuted. I don't have much time these days, if you bring up another illustration I will adress that instead.
 
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createdtoworship

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Okay, maybe I should have said, Understanding "genders" in relation to nouns in Greek is common knowledge for those of us who have learned Greek along the path of our Christian ministry.

Yes, I agree, most Christians do not learn Greek. But IF one brings Greek into the equation, or claims to be able to defend their position from the Greek, it is reasonable (at least to me) that one should understand the very basics of Greek 101!

Does Greek make a person a more "spiritual" person? No. But it may give them a bit of technical knowledge of the words in the underlying Greek text upon which our English Bibles are based.
I have never studied greek, but I use blue letter bible to look up words in greek, then I can search them using various dictionaries and resources. but I am not an expert, and I doubt you are since you keep referring to greek 101 over and over again. I know how to look up tenses, and words but I cannot read greek. But like I said if you have a word for word translation, greek becomes less important, as if you are using the NIV which uses dynamic equivalent, and changes the words. But regardless I posted another example of where the NIV is missing a text from the greek and no one has decided even to defend the position of the modern translations, In this post:

so if you mind, please refer to this post, if not, then I presume it a win for textus receptus.

Are modern Bible translations as good as the old ones? KJV versus ESV versus NKJV
 
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Radagast

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no one said we should use dynamic of an english translation, of course we should use dynamic in comparison on greek not english.

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all.

I repeatedly have shown you how two of your " good translations" contradict.

No, you haven't.

But like I said if you have a word for word translation, greek becomes less important

There is actually no such thing as a "word for word" translation. The grammatical and semantic differences between Greek and English make that impossible.

the NIV which uses dynamic equivalent, and changes the words

The NIV doesn't "change the words."

But regardless I posted another example of where the NIV is missing a text from the greek

Because it completely misrepresents the truth. The words are in fact missing from the Greek, although later added in the Majority text. It has nothing to do with the NIV.
 
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createdtoworship

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I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all.



No, you haven't.



There is actually no such thing as a "word for word" translation. The grammatical and semantic differences between Greek and English make that impossible.



The NIV doesn't "change the words."



Because it completely misrepresents the truth. The words are in fact missing from the Greek, although later added in the Majority text. It has nothing to do with the NIV.
The fact that you are not actually reading or comprehending my posts means that you are no longr open to debate. For.me to continue this conversation with you, you must admit two of your good translations contradicted. I posted it several posts back I won't repost it. If you can do that for me it will prove you are open minded enough to continue our discussion. However if you wish to reply to the verses in Matthew that the NIV omit, we can do that too. But you are not being fair with your repies. You are not actually adressing them or refuting them with facts, you are just negating them. Saying you disagree with something is not a refutation.
 
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Dr. Jack

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I have never studied greek, but I use blue letter bible to look up words in greek, then I can search them using various dictionaries and resources. but I am not an expert, and I doubt you are since you keep referring to greek 101 over and over again. I know how to look up tenses, and words but I cannot read greek. But like I said if you have a word for word translation, greek becomes less important, as if you are using the NIV which uses dynamic equivalent, and changes the words. But regardless I posted another example of where the NIV is missing a text from the greek and no one has decided even to defend the position of the modern translations, In this post:

so if you mind, please refer to this post, if not, then I presume it a win for textus receptus.

Are modern Bible translations as good as the old ones? KJV versus ESV versus NKJV
I refer to Greek 101 because you (who challenged me in another thread to defend your position from the Greek), appear to not even have knowledge of that which is covered in Basic Greek (101).

It is something as basic as the difference between Θεος and Θεον. (Go ahead, Google it!)
 
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createdtoworship

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I refer to Greek 101 because you (who challenged me in another thread to defend your position from the Greek), appear to not even have knowledge of that which is covered in Basic Greek (101).

It is something as basic as the difference between Θεος and Θεον. (Go ahead, Google it!)
So ok, you know more greek than me. Is that what you want to know? Can we be done? You obviously can't reply to my post about the NIV leaving out fasting and prayer from the new testament. I shouldn't have to explain the implications of that to you, you should already know if you are a student of the scripture. But just look up the importance of fasting and prayer in the life of a believer and google why the NIV leaves it out, why the NASB and ESV leave it out. I am not in the least bit intimidated by greek, 99% of Greek is a click away. What I am concerned about is your pride. You seem to belittle others based on you own deficiencies. See if I didn't have a reply to the logical posts here but could belittle my opponents knowledge of Greek to steer the topic away from the premises of the thread I could. But the Holy Spirit would convict me not to. Because knowledge of tenses is not really the topic at hand. I already admitted that the post was in error, and corrected it. Yet you pose to rub in the fact that I didn't do one more click of the mouse and find out the Greek to find out basic greek tenses can mean girl or boy. I gueas like I said, having a reliable translation has lessened my need to study greek. But if I was stuck using the NIV for example I would be required to know more greek because of all the changes it made. There are over 10,000 changes between the NIV and an interlinear of the textus receptus.
 
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Radagast

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The fact that you are not actually reading or comprehending my posts

Well, perhaps you can clarify what "no one said we should use dynamic of an english translation, of course we should use dynamic in comparison on greek not english" means, because I'm lost. It doesn't appear to mean anything at all.

you must admit two of your good translations contradicted

They didn't "contradict." Where the Greek has no direct equivalent in English, two different English phrases may both constitute a "best possible translation."

In the case of mē genoito, I classed the CSB, NKJV, ESV, and NIV all as "very good" (although personally I think the CSB has a slight edge).

However if you wish to reply to the verses in Matthew that the NIV omit

Once again, you are confusing a translation philosophy issue (NIV vs ESV, for example) with a Greek text issue.

A case can be made for the NIV's translation philosophy being inferior to that of the ESV -- but you haven't made it.

A case can also be made for the so-called "majority text" -- but you haven't made that either.

Mostly, you've just posted some highly deceitful images that you found somewhere, and said a whole lot of things that are either wrong or incomprehensible.
 
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Radagast

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I am not in the least bit intimidated by greek, 99% of Greek is a click away.

Well, no, clicking doesn't substitute for actually understanding Greek.

What I am concerned about is your pride.

I think the pride here lies with those who pretend to be experts when they don't even know the basics.
 
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createdtoworship

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Well, perhaps you can clarify what "no one said we should use dynamic of an english translation, of course we should use dynamic in comparison on greek not english" means, because I'm lost. It doesn't appear to mean anything at all.



They didn't "contradict." Where the Greek has no direct equivalent in English, two different English phrases may both constitute a "best possible translation."

In the case of mē genoito, I classed the CSB, NKJV, ESV, and NIV all as "very good" (although personally I think the CSB has a slight edge).



Once again, you are confusing a translation philosophy issue (NIV vs ESV, for example) with a Greek text issue.

A case can be made for the NIV's translation philosophy being inferior to that of the ESV -- but you haven't made it.

A case can also be made for the so-called "majority text" -- but you haven't made that either.

Mostly, you've just posted some highly deceitful images that you found somewhere, and said a whole lot of things that are either wrong or incomprehensible.
Ok so two translations both = a good translation. So 2T= GT, but 1T does not equal the other 1T. Two of your English translations say different things. So both of them cannot be a good translation. It's basic logic here, and if you can't see this then there is no need to discuss this further. Thanks for the debate.
 
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Dr. Jack

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So ok, you know more greek than me. Is that what you want to know? Can we be done? You obviously can't reply to my post about the NIV leaving out fasting and prayer from the new testament. I shouldn't have to explain the implications of that to you, you should already know if you are a student of the scripture. But just look up the importance of fasting and prayer in the life of a believer and google why the NIV leaves it out, why the NASB and ESV leave it out. I am not in the least bit intimidated by greek, 99% of Greek is a click away. What I am concerned about is your pride. You seem to belittle others based on you own deficiencies. See if I didn't have a reply to the logical posts here but could belittle my opponents knowledge of Greek to steer the topic away from the premises of the thread I could. But the Holy Spirit would convict me not to. Because knowledge of tenses is not really the topic at hand. I already admitted that the post was in error, and corrected it. Yet you pose to rub in the fact that I didn't do one more click of the mouse and find out the Greek to find out basic greek tenses can mean girl or boy. I gueas like I said, having a reliable translation has lessened my need to study greek. But if I was stuck using the NIV for example I would be required to know more greek because of all the changes it made. There are over 10,000 changes between the NIV and an interlinear of the textus receptus.
I'm not a fan of any Bible made from the critical text.
 
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Radagast

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Two of your English translations say different things. So both of them cannot be a good translation.

Yes they can.

"Certainly not!" is pretty much as good as "Absolutely not!" (although I have a personal preference for "Absolutely not!"), because they both mean pretty much the same thing, in context -- they are both highly emphatic negatives. The NIV's "Not at all!" works equally well.
 
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Radagast

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I'm not a fan of any Bible made from the critical text.

You've said that before.

I've seen people make a strong case for the majority text (though never strong enough to convince me). However, I've never seen anyone on CF make a good case.

In the same way, I've seen people make a strong case for the translation philosophy of the ESV over the NIV (and I generally use the ESV myself, with an awareness of the fact that its a clunky translation at times). However, I've never seen anyone on CF make a good case for the translation philosophy of the NIV being wrong.
 
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createdtoworship

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You've said that before.

I've seen people make a strong case for the majority text (though never strong enough to convince me). However, I've never seen anyone on CF make a good case.

In the same way, I've seen people make a strong case for the translation philosophy of the ESV over the NIV (and I generally use the ESV myself, with an awareness of the fact that its a clunky translation at times). However, I've never seen anyone on CF make a good case for the translation philosophy of the NIV being wrong.
check out this unbiased study on byzantine text type. He went out to disprove byzantine text type and ended up endorsing it:

The Byzantine Priority Hypothesis
 
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Radagast

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check out this unbiased study on byzantine text type. He went out to disprove byzantine text type and ended up endorsing it:

The Byzantine Priority Hypothesis

I've read more about this topic than I think you can imagine. I have not yet been convinced.

That web page certainly doesn't convince me.
 
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createdtoworship

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I've read more about this topic than I think you can imagine. I have not yet been convinced.

That web page certainly doesn't convince me.
I suggest you at least read it, and try to debunk it. I doubt you can. Whatever you have read is not like this. This is the best argument I have found, I have searched a bunch.
 
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