Are Icons Idols?

Anthony16

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Are Icons Idols? How can you can justify bowing down to something made of wood and paint? Something that is similar to what the pagans did? Isn’t this what books like the Torah, Wisdom of Solomon, Jeremiah, etc warn about? Is there any historical or Biblical justification for this practice? Here’s also a interesting video
of someone using the Church Fathers as support that Icons are Idols.
 

Anthony16

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I don't have time to check out the video, but if the act of bowing is worship, was Abraham worshipping the sons of Heth in Genesis 23?
Interesting. Also now that I think of it didn’t people bow to the ark of the convent which had images of Cherubims? So I quess this matter is very complex.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Interesting. Also now that I think of it didn’t people bow to the ark of the convent which had images of Cherubims? So I quess this matter is very complex.

it's actually only complex because folks make it out to be. there has always been a distinction between doula (veneration) and latria (worship and adoration).
 
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Anthony16

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it's actually only complex because folks make it out to be. there has always been a distinction between doula (veneration) and latria (worship and adoration).
What would be Veneration of Icons and how is it different then worship?
 
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ArmyMatt

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What would be Veneration of Icons and how is it different then worship?

same as it is in Abraham's day. veneration is to show respect for something or someone. worship denotes making a sacrificial offering to God, which has never been made to an icon.
 
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Anthony16

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same as it is in Abraham's day. veneration is to show respect for something or someone. worship denotes making a sacrificial offering to God, which has never been made to an icon.
Oh so the Icon is just a representation of that person so kissing a Icon of Mary is like kissing her in real life right?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Oh so the Icon is just a representation of that person so kissing a Icon of Mary is like kissing her in real life right?

sort of. you kiss the icon, but the respect passes to her like when you kiss a photo of a loved one.
 
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Lukaris

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Colossians 1:15 means that the Lord is the icon of the invisible God. He is the Word Who took on flesh ( John 1:14-18).
. Also remember the saints & angels of our icons also worship God with us. We are all looking to God.
 
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Anthony16

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Colossians 1:15 means that the Lord is the icon of the invisible God. He is the Word Who took on flesh ( John 1:14-18).
. Also remember the saints & angels of our icons also worship God with us. We are all looking to God.
So the Saints in Heaven are just as much part of the Church as a person on earth? If so that makes sense but don’t you guys also pray to Saints?
 
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~Anastasia~

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So the Saints in Heaven are just as much part of the Church as a person on earth? If so that makes sense but don’t you guys also pray to Saints?
It's usually more a matter of asking them to pray for us, since they are with Christ. And because the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
 
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Anthony16

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It's usually more a matter of asking them to pray for us, since they are with Christ. And because the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Okay so you don’t actually pray to let’s say Mary or Michael like you do God you just ask them to pray for you.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So the Saints in Heaven are just as much part of the Church as a person on earth? If so that makes sense but don’t you guys also pray to Saints?

to pray means just to ask or petition (ie Shakespeare). so yes, if saints are alive in Christ and part of the Church, there is no difference in asking them to pray for you or your pastor.
 
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prodromos

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It's usually more a matter of asking them to pray for us, since they are with Christ. And because the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The Church recognises who the righteous ones are and calls them Saints because their prayers avail much :)
 
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Anthony16

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See also a preaching of St. Gregory (Palamas), 14th c., on the 10 commandments ( Decalogue): Decalog. - 1 - St Gregory Palamas.
That was actually really interesting and cleared up some things for me. I have a Cross and I like it to be near me when I pray so why would a icon be any different? Plus St. Gregory makes it clear that you don’t worship them. I quess my idea was that you guys worshipped them in some way and prayed the same way that you do to God which doesn’t seem to be the case.
 
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“Paisios”

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That was actually really interesting and cleared up some things for me. I have a Cross and I like it to be near me when I pray so why would a icon be any different? Plus St. Gregory makes it clear that you don’t worship them. I quess my idea was that you guys worshipped them in some way and prayed the same way that you do to God which doesn’t seem to be the case.
I’m still just a catechumen, but this idea of icons and praying to the Saints was probably the hardest thing for me to understand and “get past” on my road to Orthodoxy. I found an awful lot that seeemed to make much more sense to me in the Eastern Church than what I had been taught in the West, and there were a lot of “aha” moments, but this was a point of concern.

It partly helped when Fr. Matt in another thread (sorry, I don’t remember which one, but I think it was in St. Basil’s somewhere) was describing how the Orthodox define worship, and I realized that there is a difference between Protestants and Orthodox even in the use of this word. Other readings, like that above, have got me past this hang up.
 
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buzuxi02

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Here are a few excerpts from the actual 7th Ecumenical council which dealt with images:

Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to the image breakers.
Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images....

Anathema to those who say that Christianshave recourse to the images as to gods.
Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols. (Session1)


.. To make our confession short, we keep unchanged all the ecclesiastical traditions handed down to us, whether in writing or verbally, one of which is the making of pictorial representations, agreeable to the history of the preaching of the Gospel, a tradition useful in many respects, but especially in this, that so the incarnation of the Word of God is shown forth as real and not merely phantastic....

For by so much more frequently as they are seen in artistic representation, by so much more readily are men lifted up to the memory of their prototypes, and to a longing after them; and to these should be given due salutation and honourable reverence (ἀσπασμὸν καὶ τιμητικὴν προσκύνησιν), not indeed that true worship of faith (λατρείαν) which pertains alone to the divine nature....

For the honour which is paid to the image passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres the image reveres in it the subject represented....
 
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JackRT

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Here are a few excerpts from the actual 7th Ecumenical council which dealt with images:

Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to the image breakers.
Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images....

Anathema to those who say that Christianshave recourse to the images as to gods.
Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols. (Session1)


.. To make our confession short, we keep unchanged all the ecclesiastical traditions handed down to us, whether in writing or verbally, one of which is the making of pictorial representations, agreeable to the history of the preaching of the Gospel, a tradition useful in many respects, but especially in this, that so the incarnation of the Word of God is shown forth as real and not merely phantastic....

For by so much more frequently as they are seen in artistic representation, by so much more readily are men lifted up to the memory of their prototypes, and to a longing after them; and to these should be given due salutation and honourable reverence (ἀσπασμὸν καὶ τιμητικὴν προσκύνησιν), not indeed that true worship of faith (λατρείαν) which pertains alone to the divine nature....

For the honour which is paid to the image passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres the image reveres in it the subject represented....

Exactly. An icon is an aid to worship not the object of worship.
 
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