Are Heaven, Purgatory, and He'll places, or states of being?

[Erose]

One thing that I forgot to mention is that my stepmother and her children (my father's wife) is not a christian. He believes that it doesn't matter if you are Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, or Hindu as long as you are a "good" one. I think that he refuses to believe that his wife and her family are on a path to Hell so he instead chooses to believe in a distorted concept of heaven and hell.

Whether or not your father wants to believe what when it comes to your step mother, that has no implication of whether or not the after life as it is now is a state and not truly a place.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Darn auto correct

Hello everyone,

Yesterday I was having a conversation with my father (who is Catholic ) on the topic of Hell and Purgatory. He then try to explain to me that purgatory and hell is a "state of being". Of course I didnt agree with my father and assumed it was his personal opinion rather than church teachings. What disturbed me is what I found when I researched the topic. Apparently it was not just my father's opinion. It was, in fact....a thing.

Here is a quote from EWTN. I will post the url to the source if you want to read it in its entirety.


HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY
Pope John Paul II
In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.

"Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

I am interested in what everyone thinks. Especially my catholic brothers and sisters. Thank you.

Where ever you are - is a place.
You cannot say you are somewhere and it is not a place of existence.
However; wherever you are is also a state of being, due to being in that place.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Just not "a thing" in the actual Bible.

Choose the Bible "instead" of the word of man.

In the Bible
1. no such thing as Purgatory -- that is completely man-made-doctrine fluff.
2. Hell - is the "lake of fire" and Rev 20 says it will be on earth.
3. Heaven - is a place - and in it we see Rev 22 streets of gold, we see the Rev 21 city of God, the Rev 2, Rev 22 "tree of life" - and in Heb 8 we find that the temple of God is there, the throne of God is there - just as in Rev 22. In Dan 7 the throne of God AND "myriads and myriads" of his holy ones are there.

However if you abandon your bible and simply accept man made tradition will it is possible to "make up" a lot of stories in man-made-tradition.


Dan 7
The Ancient of Days Reigns
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

The Bible is the word of man, inspired via the Holy Spirit and maintained by man.

It didnt float down from the sky.
Someone had to write it under the guidance of the Spirit of God, and someone had to keep it safe and understood.

 

[Erose]

The reason why the Catholic Church officially, if you will, use the term "state" in reference to heaven, hell and purgatory is that we are not talking about after the general resurrection, but rather before. Until the general resurrection, when we die, it is only our spirits that pass on. A spirit by its nature is not a physical substance. Place is a physical property, and since spirit is not physical it is unknown if there it spiritual places. But we do know that there are spiritual states.

After the general resurrection we will have our physical bodies back, and thus we will also be in a place. New Jerusalem for the blessed, and Gehenna for the damned.

 

[BobRyan]

The reason why the Catholic Church officially, if you will, use the term "state" in reference to heaven, hell and purgatory is that we are not talking about after the general resurrection, but rather before. Until the general resurrection, when we die, it is only our spirits that pass on. A spirit by its nature is not a physical substance.

Is it your belief that you are "omnipresent" in spirit but not body - and when freed of your physical body you become omnipresent like God - and also do you hear all prayers around the world that may be prayed to you -- omniscient like God as well?

2 Cor 5 says we will have our physical body - our new immortal body after we die - at the 1 Cor 15 resurrection. Is that also your belief?

2 Cor 5
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Is heaven also a "state of being"? If so, where did Jesus go after the resurrection? If not, why is heaven any different than purgatory or hell? Does that mean nobody goes to hell and we all go to heaven? Universalism?

 

[Erose]

Is heaven also a "state of being"? If so, where did Jesus go after the resurrection? If not, why is heaven any different than purgatory or hell? Does that mean nobody goes to hell and we all go to heaven? Universalism?

Jesus has a physical body, as does Enoch, Elijah and Mary. I'm not saying that there isn't a place, John in Revelation describes a temple that he saw. Where this temple is at? Is it here in the physical universe or elsewhere? One can imagine. We do know from Scripture that our glorified bodies after the general resurrection will have properties that our current bodies do not. St. Paul speaks of them as being spiritual bodies. St. Paul also said that our resurrected bodies will be like Christ's. We see from the post resurrection passages, the incredible abilities Jesus had. Not being limited to the physical.

With all that said, looking philosophically here. Only physical objects possess physical properties correct? If something is not physical, then by definition it would not have physical properties. It may have properties that are similar in nature, but these properties would not be physical.

We really have very little knowledge of spirits. We know that they exist. We know that we have one. We know by nature that they are simple in nature and cannot be destroyed. They possess abilities that physical objects do not, such as a will, an intellect, the ability to reason, etc. And we know that they are not physical.

The property of place is a physical property or location. If I tell you to go to a place, you know that there is a physical location for you to go to. What does that mean for spirits, not attached to a physical body, such as angels and spirits of the dead, that one is unknown. We do know though from divine revelation and experience that spirits can experience states. For example the Angels who sided with Michael, are in the state of bliss, while Satan and his angels are in the state of damnation. Even though the Angels and Demons seem to have the freedom to go, or maybe a better word experience wherever, they are still in those states.

Anyway a very interesting subject. There are quite a few Saints over the centuries that have written on the subject, and their writings may be of interest to you. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas would be two good resources for you.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Until you actually read Rev 20 to see that the Lake of Fire is on Earth and to see that John only refers to fire or burning hell in that way. See Rev 14:10, Rev 20...

Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 14:10
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

And neither of those passages say the lake of fire is on earth.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

if the NEW Jerusalem has streets of gold - and it came down out of heaven - then HEAVEN had streets of gold - until the New Jerusalem left it.

The point remains.

Sure, if one believes that the text is talking about a literal city coming from some place "somewhere out there"; but I have no reason to assume that in a book that talks about many-headed monsters, a blood-drinking prostitute, monstrous locusts coming out of a bottomless pit, etc that the city so described is a literal city. The city is instead described as the bride of the lamb, the imagery points us to the reality of the union of heaven and earth and the dwelling place of God and His people together on the earth in the age to come. Not to a literal continent-spanning city made of gold and gem stones floating down from the sky.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

1. Purgatory is not a place - it is a fiction.
2. Heaven is real - it is a place.
3. Earth is real - it is a place.
4. The lake of fire in Rev 20 is real - it is a place - it says it is on earth.
5. What John calls the "2nd death", "Fire and brimstone", "Lake of fire" - other writers call "hell".

 

[BobRyan]

3. Revelation 22 doesn't say that Heaven is a place that has streets of gold, what has streets of gold is the Jerusalem that comes down out from heaven.

if the NEW Jerusalem has streets of gold - and it came down out of heaven - then HEAVEN had streets of gold - until the New Jerusalem left it.

The point remains.

Sure, if one believes that the text is talking about a literal city coming from some place

Which is what "the text says".

And recall that this starts with you saying that the "text doesn't say" something. So fine - we go with "what it says".

"somewhere out there"; but I have no reason to assume that in a book that talks about many-headed monsters, a blood-drinking prostitute, monstrous locusts coming out of a bottomless pit, etc that the city so described is a literal city. The city is instead described as the bride of the lamb, the imagery points us to the reality of the union of heaven and earth and the dwelling place of God and His people together on the earth in the age to come. Not to a literal continent-spanning city made of gold and gem stones floating down from the sky.

-CryptoLutheran

God, Angels, the saints, the wicked, the fire and brimstone fate of the wicked, the earth, all mentioned in the book of Revelation - let us not go down the road of simply 'doubting them all' -

As it turns out Revelation conveys substance except when an obvious symbol is in use. As in Gen 4 "The blood of Abel cries out from the ground" we need not doubt all of scripture - if one symbol gets used.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The reason why the Catholic Church officially, if you will, use the term "state" in reference to heaven, hell and purgatory is that we are not talking about after the general resurrection, but rather before. Until the general resurrection, when we die, it is only our spirits that pass on. A spirit by its nature is not a physical substance. Place is a physical property, and since spirit is not physical it is unknown if there it spiritual places. But we do know that there are spiritual states.

After the general resurrection we will have our physical bodies back, and thus we will also be in a place. New Jerusalem for the blessed, and Gehenna for the damned.

Gehenna - was a literal place for the trash to be burned. [Refuse - garbage - done and no longer to be seen again useless] Yet garbage cannot disappear from being burned - it becomes ashes... and still exists as does the eternal soul.
Jesus knew the Jews [and others] knew of nothing of the after life so He used these references for them to understand.

Hades, another Greek word for hell - was a shadow place [dark] that was in reference to waiting. Hebrew word Sheol. OR in simpler terms - the grave - aka a place of waiting. In the OT - it was understood as the grave... aka soul sleep. In the Greek it is a place of waiting but not for the first judgment after Christ's resurrection. Because though similar the translations change...because Greek is it more severe as a hell like place.
Such as the use in the Gospel Matthew when He speaks of the debtor who throttled his own debtors.
IE - couldnt forgive....yet pleaded for his own forgiveness.
He was sent to Hades until he paid the last farthing.
Gehenna - there is no returning from being burned up... [eternally]
Sheol - a soul sleep aka grave
Hades - Greek 'a hell' - a waiting hell.
Not an eternal hell.

And we know we do not have soul sleep - per Revelation - when St John states no man in Heaven can read the book of life.
That would mean - no man in Heaven knows who will get to Heaven.
The Saints surround the Throne and pray...
Saints are witnesses in the clouds.
Saints will return with the Lord and judge nations.

IMHO - The New Jerusalem has a 2 fold meaning. the Church Jesus established where earth is like it is in Heaven.
[The Altar of the Lord] and Kingdom of heaven. Which is only seen via His Church.

 

[aiki]

"Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

I am interested in what everyone thinks. Especially my catholic brothers and sisters. Thank you.

I'm not Catholic but I do have some idea of what the Bible says and in light of what it says wonder about some of the reasoning employed in this thread.

Why can't a spiritual being inhabit a physical place? A spiritual being does not necessarily require a spiritual - that is, incorporeal - environment in which to exist. From what I can see from Scripture, the two existing together is a common occurrence (demon possession, angel visits to earth, the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, etc). Our own souls are a prime example of the spiritual existing within the material. So why, after our physical bodies expire, must we be in some non-localized, immaterial "spiritual" world? Why couldn't heaven and hell be material environments which humans inhabit for a time in an immaterial spiritual state? This is essentially our condition at the moment, is it not? We are immaterial spirits inhabiting corporeal forms in a physical world with which we interact very intimately and which acts upon us.

It seems to me, therefore, that there isn't good ground biblically to say that heaven and hell must be merely "states of being." What Scripture appears to indicate is that both places are literal, tangible locales with defined physical characteristics in which we will experience their particular features, first as disembodied spirits, but later as spirits in resurrected physical (and glorified) bodies. This isn't to say, though, that heaven and hell will conform perfectly to the physical reality that I experience here on Earth.

Selah.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm not Catholic but I do have some idea of what the Bible says and in light of what it says wonder about some of the reasoning employed in this thread.

Why can't a spiritual being inhabit a physical place? A spiritual being does not necessarily require a spiritual - that is, incorporeal - environment in which to exist. From what I can see from Scripture, the two existing together is a common occurrence (demon possession, angel visits to earth, the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, etc). Our own souls are a prime example of the spiritual existing within the material. So why, after our physical bodies expire, must we be in some non-localized, immaterial "spiritual" world? Why couldn't heaven and hell be material environments which humans inhabit for a time in an immaterial spiritual state? This is essentially our condition at the moment, is it not? We are immaterial spirits inhabiting corporeal forms in a physical world with which we interact very intimately and which acts upon us.

It seems to me, therefore, that there isn't good ground biblically to say that heaven and hell must be merely "states of being." What Scripture appears to indicate is that both places are literal, tangible locales with defined physical characteristics in which we will experience their particular features, first as disembodied spirits, but later as spirits in resurrected physical (and glorified) bodies. This isn't to say, though, that heaven and hell will conform perfectly to the physical reality that I experience here on Earth.

Selah.

Thank for your excellent response. In light of the lack of evidence for Purgatory, I submit that it does not exist at all, either as a place or a state of being, but I agree with you entirely that heaven and hell can be, and are, actual, physical places.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Thank for your excellent response. In light of the lack of evidence for Purgatory, I submit that it does not exist at all, either as a place or a state of being, but I agree with you entirely that heaven and hell can be, and are, actual, physical places.

I think it is also important to note that Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus Christ are in heaven with both their bodies and souls. So if heaven is not a physical place, where is Jesus' physical body?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think it is also important to note that Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus Christ are in heaven with both their bodies and souls. So if heaven is not a physical place, where is Jesus' physical body?

That is a truly excellent point.

 

[Optimax]

Heaven and Hell are real places.

Purgatory is a totally not real place of any kind as well as anunscriptural belief.

 

[Erose]

I think it is also important to note that Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus Christ are in heaven with both their bodies and souls. So if heaven is not a physical place, where is Jesus' physical body?

Then the question is if there is a heaven where is it? The other side of the moon? In another galaxy far far away? Maybe not even in this universe?

The key point concerning this topic is that we all already know that the beatific vision and suffering of the damned are states of experience; the question is does these reflect a spacial location when it comes to non-material beings?

 

[ViaCrucis]

if the NEW Jerusalem has streets of gold - and it came down out of heaven - then HEAVEN had streets of gold - until the New Jerusalem left it.

The point remains.



Which is what "the text says".

And recall that this starts with you saying that the "text doesn't say" something. So fine - we go with "what it says".

Exegesis doesn't stop just because the nature of the text is apocalyptic. There are a few key points when it comes to the city--having twelve foundations and twelve gates, identified with the twelve apostles and twelve tribes of Israel. Further, the city is described as "the bride, the wife of the Lamb". Bridal language such as this consistently speaks of God's people, for example Israel is described in bridal language in the writings of the Prophets, and the Church likewise is described in this way on several occasions.

God, Angels, the saints, the wicked, the fire and brimstone fate of the wicked, the earth, all mentioned in the book of Revelation - let us not go down the road of simply 'doubting them all' -

Who is doubting the Scriptures or what the Scriptures are saying?

As it turns out Revelation conveys substance except when an obvious symbol is in use. As in Gen 4 "The blood of Abel cries out from the ground" we need not doubt all of scripture - if one symbol gets used.

The Revelation is written in the literary genre known as apocalyptic--in the literary tradition of Daniel, and other second temple period apocalypses. That gives us a foundation for how we ought to read and properly exegete the text.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

3. Revelation 22 doesn't say that Heaven is a place that has streets of gold, what has streets of gold is the Jerusalem that comes down out from heaven.

if the NEW Jerusalem has streets of gold - and it came down out of heaven - then HEAVEN had streets of gold - until the New Jerusalem left it.

The point remains.

Sure, if one believes that the text is talking about a literal city coming from some place

Which is what "the text says".

And recall that this starts with you saying that the "text doesn't say" something. So fine - we go with "what it says".

"somewhere out there"; but I have no reason to assume that in a book that talks about many-headed monsters, a blood-drinking prostitute, monstrous locusts coming out of a bottomless pit, etc that the city so described is a literal city. The city is instead described as the bride of the lamb, the imagery points us to the reality of the union of heaven and earth and the dwelling place of God and His people together on the earth in the age to come. Not to a literal continent-spanning city made of gold and gem stones floating down from the sky.

-CryptoLutheran

God, Angels, the saints, the wicked, the fire and brimstone fate of the wicked, the earth, all mentioned in the book of Revelation - let us not go down the road of simply 'doubting them all' -

As it turns out Revelation conveys substance except when an obvious symbol is in use. As in Gen 4 "The blood of Abel cries out from the ground" we need not doubt all of scripture - if one symbol gets used.

Exegesis doesn't stop just because the nature of the text is apocalyptic.

True - exegesis reminds us that in apocalyptic text some things are symbols others are not. Context context context.

God is real, the wicked are real, the earth is real, the lake of fire is real, the city -- the New Jerusalem is real - but there are other cases where symbols are clearly used - like the dragon... the beasts, .... souls all clumped up under the altar.... etc.