Firstly, glad you aren't a preterist.
In the first sentence you say the characters and teachings are "true and real".
But you said it was fictional, made up by Jesus. That means it wasn't true. I would submit to you that even if it was a parable, Jesus told those as true stories, not folklore that past down through generations. I can't imagine people standing around Jesus and listening to his teachings say, "Oh, I heard that one before ... it's a little different then how grandpa told me!"
Besides, true and real, means it really happened. True and real means, the rich man felt agony, thirst, torment, flames.
I appreciate your sincerity in this matter, but please do understand that when I say true and real in regards to the parables, it is NOT with reference to a history lesson or a biology lesson.
The Pharisees were teachers of the law and equivalent to university graduates in their time. They had better knowledge of history than any layman, especially Jewish history and so they were looked upon as rabbis, meaning teachers. The Pharisees were walking libraries in their time and dictated the laws in how Jews should live healthy as far as human biology is concerned.
What we are able to discern is that the Pharisees were in fact unable to understand the parables spoken by Jesus because they did not reflect historical lessons or biology lessons, that the Pharisees could refute through debate. The Pharisees were dumb found by the parables and the disciples even questioned Jesus to why he spoke in parables if the Pharisees didn't even understand him. Jesus would say my words are spirit and those who live by the flesh cannot understand those things of the Spirit. In this regard the parables eluded the discernment of the Pharisees.
Yet there are times when the Pharisees after having answered Jesus, were unwittingly led to answer parables which reflected their characters and when they finally discerned that he was talking about them all along and they agreed with Jesus to their own shame, they sought to lay hands on him in anger. This is proof that Jesus used parables to draw hyperboles to present day characters and that he was not teaching a history lesson or a biology lesson attaining to things of the flesh.
Here is an example..........
The Parable of the Tenants
1Jesus then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place.
2At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard.
3But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed.
4Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully.
5He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.
6“He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
7“But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’
8So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.
9“What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.
10Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture:
“ ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
11the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?” (Mark 12:1-122)
What did the Pharisees do after this parable?
12Then the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders looked for a way to arrest him because they knew he had spoken the parable against them. But they were afraid of the crowd; so they left him and went away. (Mark 12:12)
Another example..........
The Parable of the Tenants
33“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place.
34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35“The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third.
36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way.
37Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
38“But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’
39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40“
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41“
He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“ ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
44Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.” (Matthew 21:33-44)
Notice Jesus makes the Pharisees answer the parable that was the context of the first example I gave you about the Stone (Jesus Christ) the builders (Pharisees) rejected. After they unwittingly answer Jesus, the Pharisees then realise that they fell for his trap by condemning themselves by their own testimony. So you can see a hyperbole in action as it drawer upon characters that reflected present day persons. This is not a history lesson as to focus on details of the characters on the parable, rather it is a lesson to teach those who operate in this world by that spirit and these are they which love and live in darkness, as Jesus would say even the little they have will be taken from them.
The rich man conveys the spirit of the world that could be reflected upon individuals and society across generations that has fallen into selfish acts and have become lacking in emphathy to others and self engrossiated in their own self. That is why Jesus would say there is no greater love than to give your life for your friend. This typifies the selfless life that a true believer should led and Lazarus was a true believer and the rich man was a believer in himself and when the outcome which is real and true brought him into hell, after the death of the body, he then realised that he was powerless and his position was helpless as even father Abraham could not help him then and this is the moral of the story friend.
The pain that the rich man goes through is real in so much the mind is the medium by which pain is realised and in hell, there needs to be no biomechanical human parts to sense pain. Think about it, if a person is in a state of conscious darkness without end and he can not see nor hear or be heard and neither taste or smell or fell, then all interface outside of his being is nil. This soul has been castigated to solitary confinement of the soul in hell, awaiting second death on the lake of fire at Christ's second coming.
How could one be in torment if they "feel nothing"? How do you know they don't hear anything, like horrible cries of fear and torment, or demons taunting them, reminding them of all their sins, how do you know they aren't torturing them?
It is a silent movie for the mind/soul consciousness, that is a person is aware of self existance, without any biomechanical interface to other things or people's. The rich man is conveyed to yell and scream, whilst frothing at the mouth, which is not literally, but a state of mind, a nightmare that won't end. It would be like a comma patient who maybe conscious but stuck in a state of suspended animation, where the mind is separated from the body. As the saying goes no one can hear you cry in hell, you can't even hear yourself, for it is a silent movie of torment, where the individual wants out of this nightmare and is powerless to end it.
Here you go again, a "state of terror" without feelings, hearing, etc? What does that mean. Feelings are not just physical, they are emotional. What good would fire do, or what threat of fire in the Lake of Fire accomplish if they didn't feel it?
Feelings are emotional constructs of the mind, that are closely connected to one's soul. They can exist without physical inputs from the five human senses and in many cases there are schizophrenic patients who go in and out of reality, without any changes to the electrical signals being sent to the brain by the five human senses. In essence the conscious mind can create a reality that needs no external biomechanical inputs. The soul is the life identity of that individual that reflects on constructs of consciousness, in the absense of physical awareness or wake state. A dream or a nightmare doesn't need human senses to make it a person's reality for those few hours in suspended animation before th wake state.
Hell is a never ending nightmare, no one can hear you scream. In fact many prisoners who are kept in solitary confinement for long durations of time, develop a condition called altered state of reality, where they believe that they have been let go and are running to freedom, only to find out those characters who have freed them start disappearing on them and they alternate between realities and no longer can they be certain to what reality is true. Even after the person actually gets freed for real, they think that it is not real. The rich man can make his own reality as Jesus had given it by reading his state of altered mind and it would not reflect reality as we know it from our historical point of reference, but it would have been very real for the rich man and Jesus would convey the reality as far as the conscious mind/soul of the rich man discerned to be as such.
Once you start thinking from a spiritual context and not just a biomechanical context, you realise that we are not who we think we are. That is we are not the biomechanical body our soul is dressed with. I was reluctant to go this deep with you, but I realise that you are hungry for answers and I have tried my best to help you understand much of what reality is after a person dies or is separated from the biomechanical human body.
So Jesus made the story up based on the thoughts of the person and the thoughts of another person, Abraham? That's your assumption.
Yes, I knew that you are an intellegent person and you have passed with flying colours. It is the rich man's state of altered mind/soul reality that he had manufactured during his solitary confinement in outer darkness. Jesus just tapped in his thoughts and highlighted the state of reality from the silent torment movie of the rich man. Notice that all conversation between Abraham and the rich man is manufactured by the rich man's altered state of reality and this therefore becomes a self testimony of what the rich man should have done whilst alive in the body and didn't do. Though now he realises it, but all too late and in this regard that is why he is asking to comminicate to his brothers as he is unable to pluck himself out of this demise and neither is he able to communicate to his brothers to save them from this fate.
I strongly tell everyone, Jesus is the truth ... whatever He says is true, not fictional! You think Jesus just used a lot of folk stories filled with half-truths just to make a point? Realize this, He alone knows every story of every person! I don't think He has to make it up. What is the problem you're having about Jesus allowing this one unique window of communication and vision between Heaven and Hades? Obviously they are permanently off limits/disconnected -- by why not allow this true event to support the truth about these places?
Jesus is the truth and Jesus clearly highlighted that the rich man instigated the communication between himself and Lazarus. The clue is the serealness of the rich man's request. Think about it, he calls Abraham father and he asks Abraham instead of asking Lazarus directly. The rich man did not have to ask Abraham to send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. He could have asked Abraham to do so directly without asking Lazarus. Now he further again asks Abraham to send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Notice at the beginning what Lazarus was doing?
Lazarus was by Abraham's side and not a single word was spoken, yet the rich man insists that Lazarus do this and do that instead of asking Lazarus directly or even asking Abraham. This rich man's altered state of reality in hell, wants closure and it cannot have closure without Lazarus being involved in the rich man state of affairs. So it is an attempt at reconciliation in a way to ask forgiveness from Lazarus and what the rich man could have done for Lazarus but he didn't, but now he wants Lazarus to forgive him. The rich man is admitting guilt and never questioned Abraham or defended himself in regards to the charges laid upon him, when Abraham said....
remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
In other words Abraham is telling the rich man you deserve what you reaped and should not complain and in this regard the rich man doesn't complain. It is conceivable that all this state of altered reality is going through the rich man's mind/soul conscious and he is calling upon a father figure in the form of Abraham for mercy. This is a sad state of reality for the rich man and the gulf existing is the actual reality or context of soul situation. It is not that the rich man could physically see Lazarus, rather he imagined him within his altered state of reality and notice the narrator of this reality is the rich man himself and Abraham and Lazarus are in fact not literally present in the form of a two way communication. The sad thing is that the rich man has made up this reality during his solitary confinement in hell. The indication of insanity is present by the description give as follows........
I am in agony in this fire!
A man in agony can hardly produce coherent speech, rather it is an act of desperation that makes him think up a reality to pass the time in eternal darkness. There are stories of people who get stranded in remote parts of the world after having accidents who then drift off into these altered state of realities. You could not assume the rich man in the state of outer darkness was in anyway rationale.
Next up, you say very plainly, Jesus invented the story! He's the Creator but has to still create a story that didn't happen?
Jesus didn't in event the story he just told it according to the very real thoughts going through the mind of the rich man, who believed it to be his reality, whilst serving in the dark confines of hell. When a person is in torment their state of mind and reality is impaired and you can't assume a legible two way communication happening between Abraham and the rich man. The rich man made up this reality and he believed it to be true in his state of altered consciousness.
Let me expound on your presumption. NO ONE EVER TOLD A FOLK TALE OF SOMEONE'S EXPERIENCE IN HADES AND A CONVERSATION THAT WENT ON BETWEEN THAT PERSON AND SOMEONE IN HEAVEN, prior to this one -- unless it was fiction. Folk tales can either be based on true stories that have changed over time or just fiction. Either way, Jesus does not teach of abstract places that don't exist or conversations with Abraham that never existed either.
I stated previously that Lazarus was a real historical figure who was empathised with by the Jewish society and his story found its way down from generation to generation, just like the grave of the unknown soldier. Lazarus's plight was real and is told throughout Jewish generations. The rich man is not namely and is therefore an impersonal figure who is the antithesis of the thesis subject Lazarus who is known. The evidence is that no one asked Jesus who Lazarus was and it was assumed that they all knew him. So how did people in Jesus's generation know Lazarus if Lazarus had past and his passing is not documented. It must have been a folk tale, based on a real character like Lazarus who like in a timeline in Jewish history whose plight is acknowledged by the greater Jewish community. In some cultures they expound on the stories of historical men and women in their societies to remind themselves of their identity and their own plight during droughts and tough times. The story about Lazarus seems to have been well known amongst the Jewish community, however Jesus expounded upon it by drawing upon the story in a hyperbole to refer to present day characters.
Well, when you are there, I would say that is your location. Why would anyone want to be destined for a place that doesn't have a location. Heaven is a spiritual domain/location of God and a realm that is beyond our concept of beauty.
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"The parables of Jesus normally concern nature, everyday life, customs and society, not startling visions of the underworld, complete with fire and chasms.
Secondly, this parable, if we can properly call it a parable, is the only one in which real people - Abraham, Lazarus - are named.
Thirdly, it is unique because the teachings in this story clearly contradict the rest of the Bible’s teaching about what happens after death. For example no other support can be found anywhere in the Bible for the idea that ‘souls’ live on after death, or that the ‘souls’ of good and wicked go to different places. Or that Abraham is waiting to welcome the dead. This may surprise some readers, but popular ideas about souls going to heaven or hell, and so on, are not taught in the Bible. In fact they are repeatedly denied in both Old and New Testaments. Elsewhere in the Bible
"the dead know nothing".
Finally, Jesus uses various phrases (such as "the Bosom of Abraham") and images (such as the chasm separating the underworld in two) which are only found outside the Bible. In fact these terms are only found in 1st Century Jewish mythology. "
Parables of Jesus by James Montgomery Boice
That is why I stated the teachings are real and true, the characters are real and true and can reflect present day characters also and the outcome most importantly of what happens after death is very real and very true.
That being said, the parable isn't to be taken as a history lesson of an actual event in time and space as we know it from a human sense, rather it is told from the reference point of the rich man who instigates the communication between Abraham and himself. In fact you will find it a contradiction for a person in hell to ever be able to instigate a communication with the angelic hosts in heaven. We see that the rich man due to being in continual torment created his altered state of reality and Jesus told it through the thoughts of the rich man, to teach a very important spiritual lesson of what will become of people if they go to hell. Hell is an insanity sanatarium.
