Are Heaven, Purgatory, and He'll places, or states of being?

[Caleb-D]

I agree with BobRyan.

 

[Job8]

I am interested in what everyone thinks. Especially my catholic brothers and sisters. Thank you

Heaven and Hell (the Lake of Fire) are most certainly places. Purgatory is non-existent.

 

[BobRyan]

Heaven and Hell (the Lake of Fire) are most certainly places. Purgatory is non-existent.

No question about it.

 

[Albion]

Heaven and Hell (the Lake of Fire) are most certainly places..

Having said this, perhaps you (or Bob) will locate them for us. Are they or either of them on a certain planet, for example? Or in the interior of our own planet? That's what I've heard other hyper-literalists argue.

 

[Razare]

In the Bible there is:

Sheol - Spiritual dimension beneath the Earth, 100% literal in the spirit realm

Eternal Fire (lake of fire) - The judgement at the end of days, for the lost, satan is thrown here, all lost people go here. This is a literal reality in the days where the spiritual dimension fully intersects with the physical dimension, and so this fire judgement is spiritual... but reality is dictated by the spiritual reality, not the physical, ultimately. The physical matters only in the governing of physical mechanical laws, which are generally enforced unless a higher principle is involved to override them.

Heavens - 3 heavens in the Bible... 1st heaven is the air. 2nd heaven is space. 3rd heaven is where God dwells, it's a literal spiritual dimension like Sheol. It is outside of space, and not 100% correlated to time.

So it's all real (except purgatory), just like how we do not see angels, does not mean angels are not real. Angels are real, and so is heaven real. But you don't generally see either.

As for purgatory, I don't know how this was derived. It wasn't found in scripture. I have heard a Catholic describe it to me, but it's not a Biblical thing.

 

[Job8]

Having said this, perhaps you (or Bob) will locate them for us. Are they or either of them on a certain planet, for example? Or in the interior of our own planet? That's what I've heard other hyper-literalists argue.

LOCATION OF HEAVEN (GOD'S HEAVEN) -- OUTSIDE THE SPACE/TIME CONTINUUM

LOCATION OF HADES -- THE HEART (CORE) OF THE EARTH, OR THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH (UNTIL THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT)

LOCATION OF HELL (THE LAKE OF FIRE) -- OUTER DARKNESS (OUTSIDE THE SPACE/TIME CONTINUUM)

 

[Erose]

LOCATION OF HEAVEN (GOD'S HEAVEN) -- OUTSIDE THE SPACE/TIME CONTINUUM

LOCATION OF HADES -- THE HEART (CORE) OF THE EARTH, OR THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH (UNTIL THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT)

LOCATION OF HELL (THE LAKE OF FIRE) -- OUTER DARKNESS (OUTSIDE THE SPACE/TIME CONTINUUM)

So you are saying only Hades is a place?


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[Albion]

LOCATION OF HEAVEN (GOD'S HEAVEN) -- OUTSIDE THE SPACE/TIME CONTINUUM

So....not a "place" after all.

LOCATION OF HADES -- THE HEART (CORE) OF THE EARTH, OR THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH (UNTIL THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT)

Yes, a place

LOCATION OF HELL (THE LAKE OF FIRE) -- OUTER DARKNESS (OUTSIDE THE SPACE/TIME CONTINUUM)

Not a "place," then.

Thank you.

 

[BobRyan]

Having said this, perhaps you (or Bob) will locate them for us. Are they or either of them on a certain planet, for example? Or in the interior of our own planet? That's what I've heard other hyper-literalists argue.

Rev 20 says the lake of fire is here on earth. John calls it "lake of fire" other writers call it "hell"

The bible says that the throne of God is in heaven -- the 3rd heaven as Paul would have it - and in Rev 22 that is where the tree of life, the river of life the throne of God are located.

 

[Job8]

So....not a "place" after all... Not a "place," then.

Most definitely places, but not on planets (as you surmised). Planets are within space/time. Heaven and Hell are far beyond.

And definitely not mere *states of mind* (as some would have us believe). Both the apostle Paul and the apostle John entered into Heaven, and saw and heard things, some which were reported and others which could not be reported.

 

[Job8]

So you are saying only Hades is a place?

Why? Simply because a location is outside the space/time continuum does not invalidate it being regarded as a place. Many astronomers believe that space is not infinite, and is in fact spherical. And there is more beyond space -- Heaven and Hell.

If the actual density of the universe is greater than the critical density, then it contains enough mass to eventually stop its expansion. In this case, the universe is closed and finite, though it has no end, and has a spherical shape.

http://www.space.com/24309-shape-of-the-universe.html

 

[Albion]

The bible says that the throne of God is in heaven -- the 3rd heaven as Paul would have it - and in Rev 22 that is where the tree of life, the river of life the throne of God are located.

Your point, I take it, is that this kind of imagery necessarily means that it has to be in some physical location.

 

[Erose]

Why? Simply because a location is outside the space/time continuum does not invalidate it being regarded as a place. Many astronomers believe that space is not infinite, and is in fact spherical. And there is more beyond space -- Heaven and Hell.

http://www.space.com/24309-shape-of-the-universe.html

You do realize that "place" is a physical property. When you go outside of the physical universe, there is no more physical properties.

 

[Ronald]

Chew on this for awhile!

Rev.9:14 > The four angels of the Apocalypse are released from the area around the Euphrates River, a physical location.
Job 10:21, 22 > "land of darkness"
Numbers 16:31-35 > 250 men of Korah are swallowed by the earth when God opened it up and He sent fire as well.
Deut. 32:22 > "Fire is kindled in My anger ... burns to the lowest part of Sheol (Hades) and consumes the earth with it's yield ... and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains." This describes fire coming out of a VOLCANO.
Prov. 9:18 > "dead in the depths of Sheol" The Bottomless Pit is caverns below the surface of the earth. Bottomless can easily be explained when being in the center cavity of the earth -- which would technically have no bottom, just ceilings all around you. Demons are kept there. Of course they are spiritual beings, but that is where they are. And the entrance is most likely outside of Jerusalem where Jesus cast the demons out and they went into the pigs. They pleaded with him not to go to the Abyss.
Ezek. 26:20 > explains the "pit" as being in the "lower parts of the earth".
Is. 24;17-22 > During Judgment Day, this passage speaks of men falling into the pit, the foundations of the earth shaking and it moving to and fro like a drunkard and the pit became like prisoners in a dungeon.
Psalm 140:10 > "may burning coals fall on them ... cast into fire ... into deep pits".
Rev. 9:1, 2 > An angel falls from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit, opens it up and smoke is released -"Like smoke from a great furnace". Jesus will return and the Mount of Olives will split in two
This area is outside of Jerusalem, called the wilderness and towards the Dead Sea (also called the Devil's Sea, Sea of Sodom, Sea of Lot). This is where Sodom and Gomorrah were also swallowed up and burned.
This area has a history of volcanic activity. The Great Rift Valley contains 30 volcanos, some active and some not. It stretches from Syria to Mozambique - 3700 hundred miles and passes through Galilee, through Jordan, The Dead Sea, south to the Red Sea and beyond. Korah's men most likely got swallowed somewhere along this rift. There is an abundant amount of thermal springs along this rift of course. "Some Old Testament scriptures infer volcanic activity", says Dr. Daubeny. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah around 1713 B.C.E would certainly qualify.
During Christ's time, the Dead Sea was even given the name, "The Lake of Fire and Smoke". History and geological evidence suggests that a reservoir of fire and brimstone exists beneath the surface of this area. A massive super volcanic eruption could open up a fissure and form a massive lava lake. That angle that falls from heaven will most likely open up the Abyss - in that area. Some have witnessed 1900 ft fountains of lava coming out of Hawaii's volcano, but a super volcanic eruption in Yellowstone or the Great Rift area would dwarf that.
People have always thought that Hell (which is the Lake of Fire) was some spiritual place, but I think it is more of a physical event during Judgment Day.
Other interesting correlations point to this area. The Valley of Hinnon leads towards the Dead Sea. Christ was tempted about seven miles NW of Jericho and NE of Jerusalem. Jericho is a few miles north of the Dead Sea. The High priest sent the scapegoat which symbolically was laden with the sins of Israel out into this wilderness once a year. One of these areas of temptation was Mt. Quarantal. It is said that this is where demons dwell deep below the surface.
The entrance to the Abyss /Bottomless Pit (a lower part of Hades) that is opened in Rev. 9:1, 2, releasing smoke and demons and fire most likely is in this area.

 

[Berean777]

Hell is a place where the soul is separated from God. So the soul or consciousness of that particular being/individual is disembodied and is in a state of consciousness darkness. It is a solitary confinement for the soul. Imagine seeing nothing, hearing nothing, tasting nothing, smelling nothing and feeling nothing, yet being in a state of conscious darkness. The individual like the rich man who was serving in hell was frothing at the mouth in a state of absolute terror, because after one day the individual will say when is this nightmare going to end, then after one week the person wants a way out, after a month the person becomes insane and after a year the person is in continuous pain of terror and after a 100 years the person/soul is being killed slowly with no hope of an end in some get of the night terror.

Fortunately for those disembodied souls serving in this conscious state of terror, they have a release when they go into oblivion and cease to be. The lake of fire is the second death, where death and hell itself is erased after the millennium ends, because hell and death cannot continue past this point.

From Christ's ascension onwards we have the first resurrection where many souls of the departed are being clothed with the heavenly bodies and being reunited with their Lord in his Father's house in heaven. During the time from Christ's ascension until his brilliant return, we see many who are not raised are being chained in outer darkness of hell, reserved for the final judgment, the second death in the lake of fire.

Purgatory although appealing to those who hold to this doctrine to heart, need to be aware that between heaven and hell after the earthly tent is dissolved, there is no middle ground. Some churches have incorporated purgatory as a midway point between heaven and hell and in this regard try to appease the masses in a political way, as to say that all will be saved and none shall be lost. This is the appeal that all shall be saved and none shall be lost. The truth be told by Jesus himself, as he stated many are called yet very few are chosen. In this regard many are lost.

The confusion that the church has introduced is not biblical but more to appease the masses in giving them a false hope after death. So that when a bad person who is related to such and such dies, then his relatives by their own penance can alleviate the pains of purgatory and the duration of the person's stay in purgatory (midway point) by offering penance in the form of monetary/gift. The church then started to cash in on this as it became quite lucrative.

Truth be told, that if your brother or sister or mother or father dies an enemy of Christ, then there is nothing that you can do to save that person. Since the Lord doesn't change and is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, we see that no family member or relative can save another through their deeds of penance. Scripture is adamant about this point.

16as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate. (Ezekiel 14:16)

Three times in the same chapter God declares that no one can save their sons or daughters by their own deeds. What purgatory has done is to appease the masses and play at the heart strings and purses of families who are led to believe that they can save their sons and daughters by their deeds of penance.

 

[Job8]

You do realize that "place" is a physical property. When you go outside of the physical universe, there is no more physical properties.

Since no one has gone outside space, that is a mighty big assumption.

 

[Erose]

Since no one has gone outside space, that is a mighty big assumption.

Outside of space is outside the physical universe. The mighty big assumption would be to assume that which isn't physical would have the same properties as something physical would.

 

[Ronald]

It is a solitary confinement for the soul. Imagine seeing nothing, hearing nothing, tasting nothing, smelling nothing and feeling nothing, yet being in a state of conscious darkness. The individual like the rich man who was serving in hell was frothing at the mouth in a state of absolute terror, because after one day the individual will say when is this nightmare going to end, then after one week the person wants a way out, after a month the person becomes insane and after a year the person is in continuous pain of terror and after a 100 years the person/soul is being killed slowly with no hope of an end in some get of the night terror.

This statement is contradictive. No hearing, no feeling, is not being conscious. Being conscious is sensing everything. And then you include the rich man who felt everything, frothing at the mouth ... in terror, conscious of everything.
Your post is nonsense!

 

[Job8]

Outside of space is outside the physical universe. The mighty big assumption would be to assume that which isn't physical would have the same properties as something physical would.

Whatever the *properties* might be, the Bible clearly reveals both God's Heaven and eternal Hell. Certainly human beings really have no idea about these but that makes no difference. Their existence is a reality.

 

[Erose]

Whatever the *properties* might be, the Bible clearly reveals both God's Heaven and eternal Hell. Certainly human beings really have no idea about these but that makes no difference. Their existence is a reality.

Didn't say they weren't realities, what I said is if they are not in this universe, it would be hard to consider them places with a physical location.


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