Are Devoted Christians Leaving the local Church?

[bèlla]

HappyHope,

I stopped attending long before the virus hit. My beliefs haven't changed and I'm steadfastly pursuing my purpose. All my friends are Christians and I have a wonderful circle of married women around me. I have the fellowship and support I need.

Right now I don't see myself attending a traditional church. I'm leaning towards small intimate gatherings at home. Not a house church. But a group of like-minded people who fellowship and break bread together. Real community in a welcoming environment.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

 

[Monksailor]

This topic is a hard one to isolate the cause at this point due to China's terroristic attack on the world, if the recent Chinese chief virologist whistle blower's story is true. Some contributions here seem to be relative to current, Covid-19 time era attendance. A condition for this discussion might be that all contributions and considerations be reserved for the period BEFORE Covid-19?

In my family's case for years we have tried and tried to find a new church family for over 11 years, and it is NOT due to the church not providing competitive entertainment or some worldly type of program or attraction. We have been burned twice by churches we faithfully supported, served and tithed; both times it was the corruption of church politics. It takes at least 6 mos, usually more, to discover any church politics and how corrupt it is. It took becoming an active member as formerly described and 7 yrs of service before we discovered the corruption in one church and the same for 3 yrs in another. No church is perfect, no Christian is perfect, but, there should be a line in the sand NOT to cross. The administration in both of these churches crossed that line, I believe, and I tried to address both situations: the first one the Pastor just wanted me to forget it and not deal with it (we ended up having to leave and a couple of years later the church split) ane the other the Pastor outright refused to discuss the matter (of the congregation having been lied to and hood-winked.) He told me that it was a "Non-issue, no further discussion."

After one gives of themselves in a sacrificial manner unto the Lord in the service of a church only to have it all tainted by corruption in the church, one loses honor and respect for the church, esp after suffering such twice, and more importantly wants to make sure that their service to the Lord is not done in vain within a under-the-table, self-glorifying church with the deadly undertow of church politics at play. Usually, politics is practiced by those of wealth, influence, or power; sadly, NONE of which a church wants to step on the toes of or wrinkle their noses or raise their brows.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Here's some data on the drop-off in church participation: In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace

It makes perfect sense that is happening in this day and age.

 

[Sabertooth]

It takes at least 6 mos, usually more, to discover any church politics and how corrupt it is.

If your story is about church finances, most churches that I have attended make their books public to their members, either by meeting or mail.

 

[Monksailor]

There are enough that you can find one you like or (as in the case of many Catholics) ignore official teaching.

Sadly, I believe that that is not true for most dedicated and committed Bible-believing Christians. I have many years in 4 different towns/cities to prove it and I, we, even expanded into several denominations of which in our earlier years we would not have ventured. The majority of churches these days, in light of the topic of this thread, are abandoning many precepts and ways and even doctrine of God's Holy Word and perverting doctrine (ie;prosperity "doctrine") in order to draw people in as if they were competing with the world and becoming the world in the end game.

 

[Monksailor]

If your story is about church finances, most churches that I have attended make their books public to their members, either by meeting or mail.

No it isn't. Politics:"Activities within an organization that are aimed at improving someone's status or position and are typically considered to be devious or divisive." pasted from: Politics | Definition of Politics by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also meaning of Politics (item # 1.3)

 

[hedrick]

Sadly, I believe that that is not true for most dedicated and committed Bible-believing Christians. I have many years in 4 different towns/cities to prove it and I, we, even expanded into several denominations of which in our earlier years we would not have ventured. The majority of churches these days, in light of the topic of this thread, are abandoning many precepts and ways and even doctrine of God's Holy Word and perverting doctrine (ie;prosperity "doctrine") in order to draw people in as if they were competing with the world and becoming the world in the end game.

Have you tried conservative confessional churches? PCA or LCMS? They should be free of stuff like prosperity, and just as hostile to women and gays as in the past. To my knowledge both still oppose evolution. At least at the national level, the S Baptists have also maintained tradition, and avoided trendy stuff. But because of their congregational governance it's harder to be sure of what's going on in individual congregations.

 

[HappyHope]

I have a theory. No one seems to agree. But I don't think the churches are too conservative or too liberal. There are enough that you can find one you like or (as in the case of many Catholics) ignore official teaching.

I think there are increasing numbers of other things you can do, and people just don't find church on Sunday all the interesting or useful. So far most churches still assume that the minimum and required level of commitment is going to church, so when someone stops, they consider themselves no longer part of the church.

Personally I think churches should stop assuming that members go to church. There are plenty of other things to do, and churches could probably find additional ones.

Our kids really like youth fellowship but hate worship service. Yet when they finish high school we only provide the worship service and not anything like youth fellowship. That seems stupid.

Evangelical churches did a better job of making worship exciting, but in the end, you can find more interesting rock concerts somewhere else.

My husband and I were just discussing reasons for lower and lower church attendance. It is likely a lot of things. Not to mention, the whole..."we wrestle not against flesh and blood..."

I cannot believe how surprised I am by the statistics you linked. I'm floored because all the churches I listen to online tend to mention positive numbers associated with their ministry. But the ship has been on fire for some time. I hope that didn't sound fearmongering. As you say, not every member of the body of Christ attends church though.

 

[HappyHope]

There all hundreds or maybe thousands of reasons to go to (or even take a leadership role in) church. Sadly, ardent and sincere faith is only one reason.

I know you are right. I just don't want to know you are right.

 

[HappyHope]

HappyHope,

I stopped attending long before the virus hit. My beliefs haven't changed and I'm steadfastly pursuing my purpose. All my friends are Christians and I have a wonderful circle of married women around me. I have the fellowship and support I need.

Right now I don't see myself attending a traditional church. I'm leaning towards small intimate gatherings at home. Not a house church. But a group of like-minded people who fellowship and break bread together. Real community in a welcoming environment.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

This topic is a hard one to isolate the cause at this point due to China's terroristic attack on the world, if the recent Chinese chief virologist whistle blower's story is true. Some contributions here seem to be relative to current, Covid-19 time era attendance. A condition for this discussion might be that all contributions and considerations be reserved for the period BEFORE Covid-19?

In my family's case for years we have tried and tried to find a new church family for over 11 years, and it is NOT due to the church not providing competitive entertainment or some worldly type of program or attraction. We have been burned twice by churches we faithfully supported, served and tithed; both times it was the corruption of church politics. It takes at least 6 mos, usually more, to discover any church politics and how corrupt it is. It took becoming an active member as formerly described and 7 yrs of service before we discovered the corruption in one church and the same for 3 yrs in another. No church is perfect, no Christian is perfect, but, there should be a line in the sand NOT to cross. The administration in both of these churches crossed that line, I believe, and I tried to address both situations: the first one the Pastor just wanted me to forget it and not deal with it (we ended up having to leave and a couple of years later the church split) ane the other the Pastor outright refused to discuss the matter (of the congregation having been lied to and hood-winked.) He told me that it was a "Non-issue, no further discussion."

After one gives of themselves in a sacrificial manner unto the Lord in the service of a church only to have it all tainted by corruption in the church, one loses honor and respect for the church, esp after suffering such twice, and more importantly wants to make sure that their service to the Lord is not done in vain within a under-the-table, self-glorifying church with the deadly undertow of church politics at play. Usually, politics is practiced by those of wealth, influence, or power; sadly, NONE of which a church wants to step on the toes of or wrinkle their noses or raise their brows.

I will refrain from bleeding all over your post with my church stories, but I can relate. I will say I am very proud of you for standing up. Sometimes we have to stand even when we have reason to believe it won't end well.

I do not know why I keep assuming there are some basic lines of right and wrong that some would not dare cross, because then they do --while smirking at you.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I know you are right. I just don't want to know you are right.

If it makes you feel any better, I think the withdrawal of the less-than-devout is a clear case of addition by subtraction.

This next bit is purely my observation. Feel free to agree or disagree as you see fit. It's only my opinion.

It's been my experience that in most Christian communities, roughly 10% of members are truly on board with everything*. That other 90%, well, they're not on board. At least, not completely and not with everything and not absolutely. When the going gets tough, they'll bug out and find some other way to spend their Sunday mornings.

But that 10%, they're 100% committed and they are with the program. Bullets will stop them but probably nothing else will. They are truly Ride Or Die with their faith. Whether times are good or whether being a Christian is a death sentence, there's no earthly force that can shake their resolve.

So in the end, these local communities aren't really "losing" anything. Instead, they're getting a more accurate headcount of the truly faithful.

* Yes yes yes, some communities have much higher rates than 10% but they're outliers which appeal to the aforementioned 10% niche. Even so, the 10% rule remains.

 

[Monksailor]

Have you tried conservative confessional churches? PCA or LCMS? They should be free of stuff like prosperity, and just as hostile to women and gays as in the past. To my knowledge both still oppose evolution. At least at the national level, the S Baptists have also maintained tradition, and avoided trendy stuff. But because of their congregational governance it's harder to be sure of what's going on in individual congregations.

I visited a Pentacostal church (Assembly of God) the PCA church doctrine is NOT acceptable to the Spirit within and we went to a Lutheren church once. They do not believe in Sunday School for adults and the church svc we had to wait an hour for was too similar to the Catholic church with its saints lining the walls and the ritualistic recitals of several mass liturgies and the formal, chilliness pervaded the whole worship service. All that I just mentioned which we experienced there was also unacceptable. thanks for suggesting them, though.

We are more along the lines of the Reformed church, a few of the many different Baptist churches, Free Evangelical, Evangelical Covenant, Non-Denominational, and Bible churches.

 

[sunshineforJesus]

My church is only running at 25 to 30 percent of our congregation,
ever since this stupid Covid virus,I keep praying people will come back but yet it seems
so many are scared to come back.

 

[Bobber]

I suppose everyone has a different story and what they think of churches.

I've read here some things of people who went various places.....but eventually always saw some type of inconsistency.....and then therefore leave. Has anyone ever stopped to consider that may be the very reason that you go....to be a light in the darkness to be an encouragement to others to the end that your presence might encourage them and inspire them to come out of their carnality? It seems so many when assessing a church ask is it a loving church? If it's loving church they want to stay. If not they leave. Maybe God actually wants one there so that you can turn them into such which would be the stronger strengthening the weaker?

 

[Bobber]

My church is only running at 25 to 30 percent of our congregation,
ever since this stupid Covid virus,I keep praying people will come back but yet it seems
so many are scared to come back.

And maybe not that they're afraid to but they don't want all the hassle of wearing masks and social distancing.

 

[HappyHope]

If it makes you feel any better, I think the withdrawal of the less-than-devout is a clear case of addition by subtraction.

This next bit is purely my observation. Feel free to agree or disagree as you see fit. It's only my opinion.

It's been my experience that in most Christian communities, roughly 10% of members are truly on board with everything*. That other 90%, well, they're not on board. At least, not completely and not with everything and not absolutely. When the going gets tough, they'll bug out and find some other way to spend their Sunday mornings.

But that 10%, they're 100% committed and they are with the program. Bullets will stop them but probably nothing else will. They are truly Ride Or Die with their faith. Whether times are good or whether being a Christian is a death sentence, there's no earthly force that can shake their resolve.

So in the end, these local communities aren't really "losing" anything. Instead, they're getting a more accurate headcount of the truly faithful.

* Yes yes yes, some communities have much higher rates than 10% but they're outliers which appeal to the aforementioned 10% niche. Even so, the 10% rule remains.

I fear you misunderstood me in a big way. I was just sad that church leadership isn't what I hope for in many cases. I wrote the post about "Morality of Church Keylogging" after being harassed by church leadership. I couldn't take the abuse. I figured I was just an odd case in respect to church leadership problems though. Now I am not so sure.

The church my aunt and uncle left were not alone. They left along with other several families over the same thing. The pastor installed his teenage son as worship pastor forcing out a good man and got rid of a Sunday School class to make it a recording studio for his son for a time. Services back then became known as The_(Pastor's Son's Name)_Show. It was too painful for many to watch.

On the other hand, my family members who stayed at that church are not the most faithful type. Trust me. I could make a case against your statistics. Though I don't want to make any church look bad.

 

[HappyHope]

If it makes you feel any better, I think the withdrawal of the less-than-devout is a clear case of addition by subtraction.

This next bit is purely my observation. Feel free to agree or disagree as you see fit. It's only my opinion.

It's been my experience that in most Christian communities, roughly 10% of members are truly on board with everything*. That other 90%, well, they're not on board. At least, not completely and not with everything and not absolutely. When the going gets tough, they'll bug out and find some other way to spend their Sunday mornings.

But that 10%, they're 100% committed and they are with the program. Bullets will stop them but probably nothing else will. They are truly Ride Or Die with their faith. Whether times are good or whether being a Christian is a death sentence, there's no earthly force that can shake their resolve.

So in the end, these local communities aren't really "losing" anything. Instead, they're getting a more accurate headcount of the truly faithful.

* Yes yes yes, some communities have much higher rates than 10% but they're outliers which appeal to the aforementioned 10% niche. Even so, the 10% rule remains.

Also, my aunt and uncle left for good reasons but I am shocked and sad if they give up on church altogether. They really are a loss for any church.

 

[Albion]

I have a theory. No one seems to agree. But I don't think the churches are too conservative or too liberal. There are enough that you can find one you like or (as in the case of many Catholics) ignore official teaching.

I'm still thinking on the other ideas raised in your post, but as for this one (^), my experience talking with such people tells me that although there is a perfect church for everyone, somewhere, it's not that one.

In other words, these mature people who leave their church have spent decades being loyal, believing, members of it. And when something turns the experience sour, no other church will do, simply because they still feel that the one they believed in and were comfortable belonging to is no more. They just cannot think in terms of an alternative which has its own history, customs, terminology, look, and a room full of strangers, even if it is very similar in worship and doctrine.

What's more, to accommodate oneself to such a switch doesn't solve anything relating to the former one that's gone astray. It, which they had loved, is still damaged goods, and that's a permanent wrong. They would rather think of themselves as the Lutherans or Baptists or Episcopalians who once were--even as non-practicing ones--rather than take on the identity of a rival church.

 

[TexFire316]

Ouch, strong verse.

I know brother, I thought the same thing when I got that verse. I left several years ago, and once I was getting in to a different form of worship (from home), without even asking for it, that was the same verse that God kept dropping on my heart as well.

 

[Sanoy]

Maybe I am reading too much into this? Or is there a growing trend of older believers leaving their local churches? I'm super sad after just hearing my uncle and aunt's story. I'm trying to make sense of this kind of thing.

There is a decline of the church as a whole, either toward a progressive direction, or in substance. Many members who have stood their ground now find themselves left behind by the new progressive direction. Others, finding no reason for the church because it is so watered down, have simply wandered off looking elsewhere for substance. The 'age of Christianity' that began with the disciples and apostles and led the world with it's convictions is on the precipice of defeat in the world theater. Without a moving of God in us, the world will return to the times before the apostles.