Are Christians to Obey the Law of God/Jesus?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Somehow my post got messed up

You can not keep the Law perfectly, which was the requirement to be accepted under the law, otherwise God considers you a transgressor and guilty of the whole law and so then its curse.
The apostle warned others about forcing gentiles to keep the Law, as did Christ warn the Jews that non of them kept the Law.
So the Law shows that it is impossible for man to keep the Law and is teaching us to come to Christ for forgiveness and acceptance, a righteousness apart from the Law.

I knew that is what you were trying to say!

 

[RexColin]

Romans 2:25
[ Circumcision of No Avail ] For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Galatians 6:13
For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

I think those are very clear statements that we are as a Church missing something in our understanding. Definitely clear passages that they were not forcing the Law on new believers, yet clearly we have passages to follow the Law. I don't believe the bible contradicts itself nor is God a flip flopper. So what are we missing in the context of the early believers narrative that shows what segments of society they were teaching to follow the Law and which segment were they defending in not enforcing the Law? I don't think the answer is as simple as Jew vs Gentile, I think that has been the theological scapegoat, but hoping to examine what other possibilities there could be in this equation of who were they directing to follow the Law, and who were they defending for not following the Law? It is almost as if there was a segment of society that were proselytes that were introduced to the Gospel, but were still considered prospective believers that were not fully immersed or inducted in to the faith yet. I see this clearly in Acts 15, especially with this statement;
Act 15:20-21 NASB but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. (21) "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

why introduce them to Moses reading at synagogues if they were attempting to separate themself from observing the Law?

 

[sdowney717]

Deuteronomy 27 New King James Version (NKJV)
26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’

“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

 

[sdowney717]

Deuteronomy 28 says you must obey all the Law of God or you will be cursed.
This is very serious too.
The just shall live by his faith, not by doing the works of the Law, for by the Law is the knowledge of our sin. The Law shows us to be sinners, transgressors of the the old covenant.

15 “But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

16 “Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country.

17 “Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

18 “Cursed shall be the [e]fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.

19 “Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.

20 “The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The Lord will make the [f]plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching,[g] and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.

25 “The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become [h]troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.

30 “You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. 33 A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually. 34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head.

36 “The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods—wood and stone. 37 And you shall become an[j] astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you.

38 “You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall [k]consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall [l]consume all your trees and the produce of your land.

43 “The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.

45 “Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you [m]did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever.

47 “Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you.

52 “They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the Lord your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the [n]fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.

58 “If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God. 63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.

64 “Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known—wood and stone. 65 And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a [v]trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see.

68 “And the Lord will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.’ And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think those are very clear statements that we are as a Church missing something in our understanding. Definitely clear passages that they were not forcing the Law on new believers, yet clearly we have passages to follow the Law. I don't believe the bible contradicts itself nor is God a flip flopper. So what are we missing in the context of the early believers narrative that shows what segments of society they were teaching to follow the Law and which segment were they defending in not enforcing the Law? I don't think the answer is as simple as Jew vs Gentile, I think that has been the theological scapegoat, but hoping to examine what other possibilities there could be in this equation of who were they directing to follow the Law, and who were they defending for not following the Law? It is almost as if there was a segment of society that were proselytes that were introduced to the Gospel, but were still considered prospective believers that were not fully immersed or inducted in to the faith yet. I see this clearly in Acts 15, especially with this statement;
Act 15:20-21 NASB but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. (21) "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

why introduce them to Moses reading at synagogues if they were attempting to separate themself from observing the Law?

It is unfortunate that some churches promote the grace of God for salvation to new converts, but once they join the church they are told they have to follow "our rules" in order to continue fellowshipping with them. It seems that grace is offered in order to get converts and then they are placed under bondage to the external rules of that church.

The Mosaic Law was a list of commands and rules that people had to follow outwardly. It didn't matter what their hearts were like, because the outward observance of the Law did not affect their hearts or change their hearts in any way. Jesus made that obvious in His teaching, because He showed that being righteous before God was more than just following a set of external rules, but there needed to be a change of heart.

This is what happened with conversion to Christ. It is a change of heart, taking out the heart of stone and putting in a heart of flesh, so that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ could be written on it, and then believers could follow the commands of Christ from their hearts, and not just observing a set of external rules. God is not concerned with follow outward rules, but He values people desiring holiness from their hearts.

This means the desire of our hearts is to conform to the commands of Christ and to trust the Holy Spirit to work holiness in us, even though we know that we still have a long way to go toward perfection, and often we mourn, because we are so aware of our failings and shortcomings.

 

[sdowney717]

In the New Covenant we are obedient to the message from God to believe in Christ and repent of our sins.
This is a much better covenant with much better promises.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

In lesser words, God's elect have been chosen by God to be obedient to Christ and have the blood atonement for their sins.

1 Peter 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
Our Inheritance Through Christ’s Blood
1 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow [a]thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People
4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

 

[Andrewn]

No one can practice the Law since there is no Temple and no sacrifices. So, what's exactly meant by practicing the Law in this thread? Are you just discussing kitchen laws?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are Christians to Obey the Law of God/Jesus?

Question: Are Christians to obey the Law of God/Jesus?

Answer: Yes. Jesus taught that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28); However, this is not at the neglect of God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

We are saved by two works of God:

I believe we are saved by two works of God done in our lives. The 1st work of God is the Justification process (Being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ), and the 2nd work of God is the Sanctification process (Living holy by the power of God). But we need to properly understand how we can apply each of these two processes (or works of God) to our lives (according to Scripture).​

To explain more the first work of God:

I believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (and believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, and seeking forgiveness with Him) and it is not by "Works Alone Salvationism" that does not include God's grace and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5). For if we stumble into sin, do we get clean by doing a good work? No. We get clean and forgiven (saved) again by God's grace. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9, cf. 1 John 2:1).​

To explain more the second work of God:

After we are saved by God's grace, I believe that we need to bring forth "works of faith" (obedience to Christ's commands) as a part of the Sanctification process (i.e. the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives to make us holy) in the next step or stage in the salvation process. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, "...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Paul says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). Paul also says we can deny God by a lack of works in our life (Titus 1:16).​

As for the Law:

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So you have to look at the 613 Laws of Moses as being one contract given to Israel (OT Law), and the laws (or commands) given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the New Covenant) is another contract (NT Law). For Romans 7:6 says, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Think of it like when a person may buy a house. They are offered a contract for buying that house. But if that person does not like the contract in certain places, they may request to have the contract changed. If the seller and real estate agent agree to the changes, they will draw up a new contract (with the new changes) so as sell the house to him. For this guy who is buying the house, his idea of the purchase (according to the new contract) is more fulfilled and complete to his liking. So what do they do with the old contract? They discard it. Entirely? No. The new contract may have repeated many things in the old contract, but the new contract has changes in it that fulfill a better purpose or desire for the buyer.

We know that the New Covenant (New Contract) began officially with Christ's death (See Hebrews 9:16-17, Luke 22:20, Matthew 27:51). With the exception of a few instances like Christ endorsing animal sacrifices in Matthew 5:24, Jesus primarily taught New Covenant teachings before the cross and not OT teachings. Jesus was preparing others for the way of the upcoming New Covenant or New Testament that would go into effect when he died upon the cross.

When Jesus says I come not to destroy the Law, he is referring to God’s Laws in general. Jesus did not come to destroy ALL forms of Law. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. This means Jesus came to fulfill the Law into it's true intended purpose with the giving of the commands from Himself and His followers with the commands we see in the New Testament. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17). Jesus brought us commands in the New Covenant that were FAR superior to the Old Covenant Laws (contractually speaking - like contracts in buying a house).​

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" (Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).​

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).​

Conclusion:

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith); But yes, Christians must obey the commands of Jesus. It is not an option because it is a part of eternal life (See again: Matthew 19:17-19, Luke 10:25-28).

 

[Bob S]

Question: Are Christians to obey the Law of God/Jesus?

Jesus is God and he did come to this Earth and fulfill the old covenant laws. Fulfill means to bring to an end and that is exactly what He accomplished concerning the old covenant. He also ushered in the new and better covenant and as the new High Priest He also changed the law. Hebrews 8: 13 By calling this covenant ‘new’, he has made the first one (Sinai covenant) obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Since the old covenant has been replaced by the new and better covenant that has better promises how can we be subject to the laws of the old covenant? We are subject to the laws Jesus gave us while He was with us and not the laws given to the Israelites at Sinai. The love laws that Jesus gave us are about morality, not about a bunch of ritual laws contained in the Sinai covenant.

Answer: Yes. Jesus taught that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28); However, this is not at the neglect of God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The answer Jesus gave to the man was true under the Sinai covenant which both were under. Under the new and better covenant Jesus would tell us:
1Jn3:23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

We are saved by two works of God:

I know we are saved by the shed blood of the Lamb. Pretty simple is it not?

​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus is God and he did come to this Earth and fulfill the old covenant laws. Fulfill means to bring to an end and that is exactly what He accomplished concerning the old covenant. He also ushered in the new and better covenant and as the new High Priest He also changed the law. Hebrews 8: 13 By calling this covenant ‘new’, he has made the first one (Sinai covenant) obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Since the old covenant has been replaced by the new and better covenant that has better promises how can we be subject to the laws of the old covenant? We are subject to the laws Jesus gave us while He was with us and not the laws given to the Israelites at Sinai. The love laws that Jesus gave us are about morality, not about a bunch of ritual laws contained in the Sinai covenant.


The answer Jesus gave to the man was true under the Sinai covenant which both were under. Under the new and better covenant Jesus would tell us:
1Jn3:23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

I know we are saved by the shed blood of the Lamb. Pretty simple is it not?

​

Well, I would encourage you to go back and carefully re-read my entire post again. For my case was that the Old Law as a whole is no longer in effect anymore. It ended with Christ's death. This would especially would include the ending of the ceremonial laws. For I mentioned how the Saturday Sabbath, and how cirumcision are no longer in effect under the New Covenant. My point was that we are under a New Covenant (New Testament) with New Commands (that are from the New Testament). My point was that we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter as Romans 7:6 says.

My point was that Jesus was making changes to the Old Law with New Covenant teachings even before His death upon the cross (Note: The crucifixiion of Christ was the official beginning of the New Covenant, or New Testament). But before the cross, Christ was preparing us with His New Covenant teachings. We know this because He was making changes to the Law. Please go back to my previous post to see the verses of where Christ makes the changes (pre-cross). In other words, you cannot claim that Christ taught exclusively Old Covenant or primarily Old Covenant teachings. First, that would not even make any sense to do that. Why would the Lord give us new teachings just so that they could be quickly abrogated or ended? Second, we can even see the Lord's pre-cross teachings remain the same even after the cross. For example: Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). This truth is expressed in 1 John 3:15. It says that whoever hates his brother (Which is the opposite of loving your brother) he is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Hebrews 10:26 says that if we willfully sin after we received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. In Romans 8:13, Paul says to believers, if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die (die spiritually), but if you put to death the deeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live spiritually) (Note: Also see Romans 8:1 in the King James).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I know we are saved by the shed blood of the Lamb. Pretty simple is it not?

The true imputation of Christ's sacrifice or His blood atoning us if 1 John 1:7. It says if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother (See 1 John 2:9-11); And again, a believer hating their brother means no eternal life abides in them (1 John 3:15). One way Paul defined loving one's neighbor is by keeping the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, etc. - See: Romans 13:8-10).

 

[RexColin]

Question: Are Christians to obey the Law of God/Jesus?

Answer: Yes. Jesus taught that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28); However, this is not at the neglect of God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

We are saved by two works of God:

I believe we are saved by two works of God done in our lives. The 1st work of God is the Justification process (Being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ), and the 2nd work of God is the Sanctification process (Living holy by the power of God). But we need to properly understand how we can apply each of these two processes (or works of God) to our lives (according to Scripture).​

To explain more the first work of God:

I believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (and believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, and seeking forgiveness with Him) and it is not by "Works Alone Salvationism" that does not include God's grace and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5). For if we stumble into sin, do we get clean by doing a good work? No. We get clean and forgiven (saved) again by God's grace. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9, cf. 1 John 2:1).​

To explain more the second work of God:

After we are saved by God's grace, I believe that we need to bring forth "works of faith" (obedience to Christ's commands) as a part of the Sanctification process (i.e. the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives to make us holy) in the next step or stage in the salvation process. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, "...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Paul says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). Paul also says we can deny God by a lack of works in our life (Titus 1:16).​

As for the Law:

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So you have to look at the 613 Laws of Moses as being one contract given to Israel (OT Law), and the laws (or commands) given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the New Covenant) is another contract (NT Law). For Romans 7:6 says, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Think of it like when a person may buy a house. They are offered a contract for buying that house. But if that person does not like the contract in certain places, they may request to have the contract changed. If the seller and real estate agent agree to the changes, they will draw up a new contract (with the new changes) so as sell the house to him. For this guy who is buying the house, his idea of the purchase (according to the new contract) is more fulfilled and complete to his liking. So what do they do with the old contract? They discard it. Entirely? No. The new contract may have repeated many things in the old contract, but the new contract has changes in it that fulfill a better purpose or desire for the buyer.

We know that the New Covenant (New Contract) began officially with Christ's death (See Hebrews 9:16-17, Luke 22:20, Matthew 27:51). With the exception of a few instances like Christ endorsing animal sacrifices in Matthew 5:24, Jesus primarily taught New Covenant teachings before the cross and not OT teachings. Jesus was preparing others for the way of the upcoming New Covenant or New Testament that would go into effect when he died upon the cross.

When Jesus says I come not to destroy the Law, he is referring to God’s Laws in general. Jesus did not come to destroy ALL forms of Law. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. This means Jesus came to fulfill the Law into it's true intended purpose with the giving of the commands from Himself and His followers with the commands we see in the New Testament. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17). Jesus brought us commands in the New Covenant that were FAR superior to the Old Covenant Laws (contractually speaking - like contracts in buying a house).​

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" (Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).​

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).​

Conclusion:

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith); But yes, Christians must obey the commands of Jesus. It is not an option because it is a part of eternal life (See again: Matthew 19:17-19, Luke 10:25-28).

Have you considered Jesus is teaching us how to apply his Law that is good, lawfully, as he intended it to be applied rather than as two separate works. Did God come in flesh and do amazing incredible works? yes. But they were continuations of his works (see Jeremiah 31) I think people presume that Grace is doing away with Law, but I would propose that without Law, there can be no Grace, and without Atonement (true grace), we can have no salvation from death. Marcion came to similar conclusions as the proposed "two works" idea, things did not work out so well for him in the Church for doing so. I would proposed God/Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, so his work is the same rater than different. I can confidently base that on this;
Psa 89:27-35 NASB "I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth. (28) "My lovingkindness I will keep for him forever, And My covenant shall be confirmed to him. (29) "So I will establish his descendants forever And his throne as the days of heaven. (30) "If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments, (31) If they violate My statutes And do not keep My commandments, (32) Then I will punish their transgression with the rod And their iniquity with stripes. (33) "But I will not break off My lovingkindness from him, Nor deal falsely in My faithfulness. (34) "My covenant I will not violate, Nor will I alter the utterance of My lips. (35) "Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David.

Notice God's reference to The Law, His Covenant, and the use of the word forever. Seems Jesus is part of One work in this context, and not part of two separate works of God.

 

[mark kennedy]

When was it ever going to be ok to worshiip idols, or make them for that matter. If you love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength are you going to want to. James 2 talks at length about works and faith, based on the Royal Law which is the far more excellent way.

But the fruit of the Holy Spirit are love, joy, peace, forebearance, kindness, gentleness, gentleness and self control. Against such there is no law. (Gal. 5:22-24)

I've got a long list of references, rest assured I don't have a shortage of source material. Every single one of these threads avoids completely how the New Testament believer obeys the Law under grace.

I know, the study takes a bit but it's not that tough. What gets me is no interest.

 

[RexColin]

When was it ever going to be ok to worshiip idols, or make them for that matter. If you love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength are you going to want to. James 2 talks at length about works and faith, based on the Royal Law which is the far more excellent way.

But the fruit of the Holy Spirit are love, joy, peace, forebearance, kindness, gentleness, gentleness and self control. Against such there is no law. (Gal. 5:22-24)

I've got a long list of references, rest assured I don't have a shortage of source material. Every single one of these threads avoids completely how the New Testament believer obeys the Law under grace.

I know, the study takes a bit but it's not that tough. What gets me is no interest.

Great point!!!
Jas 2:17-23 NASB Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. (18) But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (19) You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. (20) But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? (22) You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; (23) and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
And Abraham is in whom we are heirs to the Promise, so that promise of Life is therefore attached to works of Faith. I'm certain James was referencing the Royal Law as the Law of God given at Sinai since he also references it as also the Law of Liberty as David did in Psalm 119:45-48
Psa 119:44-48 NASB So I will keep Your law continually, Forever and ever. (45) And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts. (46) I will also speak of Your testimonies before kings And shall not be ashamed. (47) I shall delight in Your commandments, Which I love. (48) And I shall lift up my hands to Your commandments, Which I love; And I will meditate on Your statutes.

 

[Andrewn]

I think people presume that Grace is doing away with Law, but I would propose that without Law, there can be no Grace,

I'm still waiting for an answer. What laws are you advocating, here. There is no Temple and no sacrifices, thank God for His sacrifice. No Jew and no Gentile can follow the Law.

 

[RexColin]

I'm still waiting for an answer. What laws are you advocating, here. There is no Temple and no sacrifices, thank God for His sacrifice. No Jew and no Gentile can follow the Law.

I'm advocating the Law of God. The one that David, Jesus, and Paul advocated

 

[Andrewn]

I'm advocating the Law of God. The one that David, Jesus, and Paul advocated

We all agree, then. Christians should definitely follow the Law of God.

I'm not sure why some members here contradicted you. Perhaps you gave the impression that you were advocating for the Law of Moses like the Judaizers in Acts 15 and elsewhere. But this issue was settled very early on in the Council of Jerusalem where the Apostles decided:

"28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

We need to read the Torah to find out what "sexual immorality" is. But we can eat lobster if we want.

 

[RexColin]

Law of Moses is God's Law. Nehemiah 10:29 NASBS are joining with their kinsmen, their nobles, and are taking on themselves a curse and an oath to walk in God's law, which was given through Moses, God's servant, and to keep and to observe all the commandments of GOD our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes;
The Judaizers were trying to force on believers the things they ADDED to the Law, such as the passover circumcision of flesh to be considered saved when the more important circumcision law was this one
Deuteronomy 30:6 NASBS "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
That is the circumcision law that God gave in the Law of Moses that save you. The law of Moses isn't the problem with the Law, it is Man's understanding of how to apply it that is the problem. Folks making the law fit what they want to do or not do rather than what God says to. But the Law of Moses is the Law of God that David, Jesus, and Paul obeyed.

 

[Andrewn]

The Judaizers were trying to force on believers the things they ADDED to the Law, such as the passover circumcision of flesh to be considered saved when the more important circumcision law was this one Deuteronomy 30:6 NASBS "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. That is the circumcision law that God gave in the Law of Moses that save you.

I don't think any Christian would disagree with this. The problem is that you previously advocated following the entire Mosaic Law.

In the beginning, you objected to classifying the Law of Moses into Moral, Ceremonial, Dietary Laws. Then you ignored the fact that no one can follow the ceremonial laws bec there's no Temple. Then you didn't include the dietary laws in your discussion. Then you started promoting the moral laws alone, which everyone has already agreed to from the first responses!!

Beside keeping Sabbath on Saturday, is there anything _new_ that you advocate here? Do you advocate physical circumcision, abstaining from pork and shrimp, celebrating new moons and full moons, etc.? Why do you consider yourself Messianic when you're not a Jew? Gentiles are subject only to the Noachide Laws.

 

[Vicky gould]

I don't think any Christian would disagree with this. The problem is that you previously advocated following the entire Mosaic Law.

In the beginning, you objected to classifying the Law of Moses into Moral, Ceremonial, Dietary Laws. Then you ignored the fact that no one can follow the ceremonial laws bec there's no Temple. Then you didn't include the dietary laws in your discussion. Then you started promoting the moral laws alone, which everyone has already agreed to from the first responses!!

Beside keeping Sabbath on Saturday, is there anything _new_ that you advocate here? Do you advocate physical circumcision, abstaining from pork and shrimp, celebrating new moons and full moons, etc.? Why do you consider yourself Messianic when you're not a Jew? Gentiles are subject only to the Noachide Laws.