Are Charismatics thinkers?

[Lee]

Much to our shame, charismatics tend not to be deep thinkers. There are a couple of things that bear this out.

It is somewhat true. Because Charismatics do not need to be theological and philosophical about little everything. They just want to the simple things. They are satisfied. There is joy in being satisfied with that.

But there are deep-thinking Charismatics too. I can give you some names: John White, John Wimber, Jack Deere, Derek Prince, Kenneth Hagin, Wayne Grudem, Richard Roberts, and other names that I can not think for the moment.

 

[MikeMcK]

Why can't you classify teaching that says that Jesus was a sinner Who had to suffer in Hell false?

That's heresy, isn't it?

 

[look]

Why can't you classify teaching that says that Jesus was a sinner Who had to suffer in Hell false?

That's heresy, isn't it?

I didn't know that you had it in you to join us WoF people, we also reject the premise that Jesus was a sinner, too! Welcome MikeMcK!!!

 

[Lee]

I am new into these conversations. What is "WOF"?

 

[look]

Hello Lee!!!

WoF means Word of Faith. It's taken from Romans 8:10...

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Why can't you classify teaching that says that Jesus was a sinner Who had to suffer in Hell false?

That's heresy, isn't it?

Well... I guess Jesus, Paul, Luke, and all the rest were heretics then. Not to mention those who wrote the apostles creed and the millions of people who have expressed faith in it. But of course no one says Jesus was a "sinner." That is just typical hype designed to make what we believe to be something bad. The scripture says He was made sin for us. You really cannot escape that.

Brother, you need to stop listening to the people who think they are experts on "heresy" and start listening to the Spirit and the Word. Find out what you do believe, and do not define yourself by what you are afraid to believe in because it might be considered "heresy" by someone. Jesus, Paul, Peter, every prophet and every apostle were considered "heretics" by the established religion of their day. I am somewhat glad that they consider what I believe to be a heresy. I am in with the good company!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I am new into these conversations. What is "WOF"?

It means Word of Faith Lee. And I'm sure some of these others can explain it a little better than I but basically, the way I like to describe it is: WOF is choosing to believe what the Word of God says and acting and standing upon what the Word of God says, regardless of what my circumstances say.

The Word does not promise a cadalac and furs, but God does promise to meet our needs. He does not promise our wants. . .but He is a loving and giving God and frequently gives us our wants just to show His love for us. But those wants are not what we stand on the Word for. We stand on the Word for what it says.

 

[Lee]

Then I would be WOF person too.

 

[Lotar]

It certiantly is heresy to claim that Jesus was a sinner.

Christ never sinned, that is stated repeatedly in scripture. Jesus was God made flesh.

Hebrews 7:28
For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Acts 3:14
"But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,

[size=-1]1 Peter 4:1
Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
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1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

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[size=-1]John 8:34
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
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[size=-1]Romans 6:23[/size]
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For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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[/size][size=-1]Was Jesus a slave to sin? Did He pay the wages of sin, or did He rise again?[/size]

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[size=-1]1 Corinthians 15:17
and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
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[Andrew]

No one here (including WOF) says that Jesus is a sinner. But he was made sin for us at the cross, so that we might take on his righteousness. In other words, he bore our sins.

 

[Lee]

But he was made sin for us at the cross, so that we might take on his righteousness. In other words, he bore our sins.

True. That is what I always have believe in my whole life as a Christian.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It certiantly is heresy to claim that Jesus was a sinner.

Christ never sinned, that is stated repeatedly in scripture. Jesus was God made flesh.

[size=-1]Was Jesus a slave to sin? Did He pay the wages of sin, or did He rise again?[/size]

It is also heresy to say God is a brazillian cowboy... and I do not know anyone who teaches that either. So what is your point? Who said Jesus was a sinner? Why bring it up here?

 

[Lee]

It is also heresy to say God is a brazillian cowboy... and I do not know anyone who teaches that either. So what is your point? Who said Jesus was a sinner? Why bring it up here?

It seems like this topic belongs to the theological section.

 

[TheScottsMen]

Nah.. But the heresy hunter does.

 

[Andrew]

Perhaps we should form a "heresy hunters extermination" group.... nah.... why descend to that level.

 

[Theophilus7]

Why can't you classify teaching that says that Jesus was a sinner Who had to suffer in Hell false?

That's heresy, isn't it?

MikeMck, you appear to be under some misapprehension. The WoF teachers do not claim that Christ Himself actually sinned. I suggest you see for yourself what they teach, rather than collect your opinions from websites of dubious integrity (?). Regarding Christ's descent into hell, I disagree with their assertion that the sufferings of Christ continued beyond the cross. However, the charge of heresy seems somewhat overtrumped. A similar line of reasoning regarding the sufferings of Christ can be found in the writings of John Calvin [1]. Furthermore, those in the Word of faith movement who do teach that Christ suffered in hell (not all do) never fail to exalt the blood of Christ and its power to cleanse from sin. It is my contention (and I am not alone in this) that they are not obstructing the appropriation of forgiveness and salvation through the cross [2].

- - -
[1] Calvin writes, “Nothing had been done if Christ had only endured corporeal death. In order to interpose between us and God's anger, and satisfy his righteous judgment, it was necessary that he should feel the weight of divine vengeance. Whence also it was necessary that he should engage, as it were, at close quarters with the powers of hell and the horrors of eternal death.” John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, II.16.10. It would appear that Calvin was not referring to a literal descent into hell. Rather, the locale of hell is actually within the mind of Christ on the cross.
[2] William DeArteaga’s comments in Quenching the Spirit, chapter 20, pgs 239-243 are worth referring to here.

 

[MikeMcK]

MikeMck, you appear to be under some misapprehension. The WoF teachers do not claim that Christ Himself actually sinned.

Actually they do teach that He became a sinner based on a serious misapplication of 1Col 5. I wrote a very long and detailed post going point by point over what they teach and how it contradicts scripture but it was deleted, claiming that simply following the Biblical command to examine teaching in light of scripture is now tantamount to "denigrating Christian groups".

I suggest you see for yourself what they teach, rather than collect your opinions from websites of dubious integrity (?).

Actually, I know from the years I spent in the Wof movement what they teach, thank you, and I was prepared to detail them from the teachers' own words but evidently, sound doctrine isn't a priority here. As I've explained countless times, their teachings that I quote come directly from their words as found in their books, tapes, etc.

So with that, I am leaving. I cannot stay in a forum where I am confronted with heresy and am not allowed to confront it with scripture.

 

[look]

[c]

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[SpiritPsalmist]

Actually they do teach that He became a sinner based on a serious misapplication of 1Col 5. I wrote a very long and detailed post going point by point over what they teach and how it contradicts scripture but it was deleted, claiming that simply following the Biblical command to examine teaching in light of scripture is now tantamount to "denigrating Christian groups".

Actually, I know from the years I spent in the Wof movement what they teach, thank you, and I was prepared to detail them from the teachers' own words but evidently, sound doctrine isn't a priority here. As I've explained countless times, their teachings that I quote come directly from their words as found in their books, tapes, etc.

So with that, I am leaving. I cannot stay in a forum where I am confronted with heresy and am not allowed to confront it with scripture.

Brother,

This is one of the rules of the Charasmatic forum:

Basically, we do NOT allow accusations that a particular Christian denomination or group is non-Christian. That is the bottom line. Debates regarding doctrine is allowed. Accusations are not.

You may question about doctrine but it is not allowed to call us/them/me/anybody a heretic or a cult or to attack those whom are teachers in those movements as such.

 

[Gary M]

Didaskolas
Just wanted to let you know that over a period of time, I have been so blessed, inspired and encouraged by your posts at different forums. You and Troy Edwards are excellent voices for WoF.

Also, I have been to BereanOnline. Love it!
I've read the posted articles. Excellent!
However, I don't know how to go any further, when I click on main it calls for name and password, which I don't have so am denied. I am interested in checking further into BereanOnline.

Thanks
Gary