Are Charismatics thinkers?

[deg]

Guys, I'm kidding. We all need to take a big breath of "lighter" air, and have a good laugh. I personally value all the input and discussion here, I'm just kidding around with how some of the sectors of charismatics have been led astray. But this place sometimes becomes a big name-calling match, and other times it becomes a "cemetary" filled with repetitive, circular discussions. I like seeing a new, and semi-controversial topic like this!

Theo, you are a fresh breath of sweet spring air!

No, I don't bark in the Spirit. No one barks in the Spirit; I don't remember that one in Corinthians.

I've just felt that in many of the circles of Gift Receivers, there is a tendancy to perform the aforementioned "Checking of one's brain at the door": barking is good evidence of that. So is an open, untested acceptance of a message of prophecy. Test those darn spirits!

I'm sorry, but it's hard to convey humour through typed message!
I'll try again later.

Peace, and may God bless you all richly!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Sorry if I took the questioning a bit too seriously. . .I guess I'm just a wee bit on guard. I do have a pretty good sense of humor, but with this, I get the sense there is a set up for something down the line. . .but I could be wrong. It would not be the first time, nor I'm sure will it be the last.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hey all. . I did not mean to stop all the DEEP thinking here

 

[Follower of Christ too]

I am doing some deep thonking here. How are you guys getting those cute smilies?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I am doing some deep thonking here. How are you guys getting those cute smilies?

Here ya go http://anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/

 

[Theophilus7]

Are you claiming Theophilus that you are perfectly consistent in everything you say and do and there is absoutly no variation between them?

A curious remark. I can only imagine that you made it because I have annoyed you in some way, in which case I apologise. I was simply stating the dangers of a wrong idea, and further pointing out that even if the person espousing the idea had not fallen foul of those dangers, it doesn't follow that the idea is therefore sound after all. My premise was based on the fact that we can believe one thing and not follow it through consistently. We are human.

Scripture says, "may this mind which was in Christ Jesus be in you." In order for this to be accomplished we much not only study His Word but we must be bringing our minds into subjection to Him and we are told to "renew" our minds daily.

Absolutely.

I do not think I need to respond to the rest of your post. We do not seem to have any major disagreements, I think. My reply to Andrew was an attempt - a gentle one, I hope - to point out the need to approach the issue of study and biblical discernment with the whole person; the mind is very much involved in the process of synthesising biblical truth into acceptable doctrine. I quickly affirm that there is more to Bible study than an active brain cortex, of course.

God bless,

Theophilus7

 

[Metanoia02]

I have not seen a great deal of Charismatic worship. What traits do you observe which would prompt you to classify it as largely "emotionalism", and in what ways do you think it forfeits "intellectualism"?

Cheers,

Theophilus7

I noticed I had originally posted to this thread, so sorry for the late response.

The Charismatics I have seen and spoken with operate on an emotional response. They operate on how they "feel". They speak of the being moved (emotionally) by the Holy Spirit. I am in no way saying these are not genuine. They are what they are.

Having read some literature written by Charismatics, I don't see evidence of an intellectual approach. What I am saying is that I doubt if they have read Summa Theologica or anything of that nature. It had nothing to do with the level of education one has attained in life, but what approach they have to theological or spiritual matters.

 

[Brother John]

I've met intellectual Charismatics.
I've met rediculously moronic Charismatics.
I've met many many who were (like me) somewhere in between.

Just like every other... anything, anywhere; there's ALL kinds of Charismatics.

I must admit, your question seems loaded.
What are you getting at please?
Thanks
Your Brother
John

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The Charismatics I have seen and spoken with operate on an emotional response. They operate on how they "feel". They speak of the being moved (emotionally) by the Holy Spirit. I am in no way saying these are not genuine. They are what they are. .

Meta,
I think the emotional thing stems from the way western society frowns upon most emotional displays in public. I think this is a barrier to many people who in fact believe that praise and worship is a function of the emotional side of man. We know that praise and worship is actually a function of the spirit. In fact that is the only kind of praise and worship the Father desires.
I think in many quarters people feel like they need to work themselves up into a frenzy before they will praise and worship. This is really not needed. I myself have the temperment of a tuna salid. I just do not get excited on an emotional level about much of anything. This drives my wife nuts and I have to make a conscious effort to be "affectionate." I think I got this attribute from my natural father who is much the same way.
As to praise and worship... when I taught the subject in a Pentecostal church I used to tell them that they should do this out of obedience. Forget having to get worked up into a frenzy. Do this in the obeisance of faith. Lift your hands and praise Him regardless of how you feel. Do it because He said to do it. If a feeling comes... great! If it does not... so what?
I challenge those who praise God to do this. Praise Him on an obediance level and just sense and discern His anointing. Listen and watch in your spirit.
Just kind of... simmer.

 

[Andrew]

Hi Theo,

Sorry havent responded. I post in so many threads i forget where I posted. Sometimes I dont expect a response also.

I certainly dont mean that one leaves his brain at the door when he attends church. God made man, God made his brains, and I'm sure is not to be left unused!

But intellect can only go so far. No matter how smart one is, he can't defeat last-stage cancer or Aids. "Not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit".

In terms of studying the Bible, intellect is very limiting IMHO. I believe strongly that only the illumination of a particular passage or verse by the Holy Spirit can bring the answer to a need, or bring revelation to a particular scripture.

No offence but I find that theologians who are highly educated and intellectual have a very 'academic' view/interpretations of the Bible. IOW there's plenty of theology, concepts, philosophies, etc but no life-changing substance that can only come from the Spirit.

Take this passage for eg:

Gen 2:
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

What does it mean? how wld a typical Bible commentary explain it?

ps: again, I'm not against being smart, but the brain/mind, which is part of the soul, should be controlled by the spirit/Spirit. God also seems to use the foolish and weak things of the world to confound the mighty and wise. I think that is simply becos those who are weak have no confidence in themselves and hence lean fully on God. When I am weak, he is strong, he becomes my strength.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I'm reminded of the time that I gave a prophetic word to someone. I did not know this person nor did I know anything about them.

Anyway, frequently the way God shows me things about other people it through like mini movies in my head. With this person, I saw them in a boat and they were furiously rowing. He had the row in his hand and he was rowing and rowing and rowing but the boat was not going anywhere.

Then the view began to move as if a camera was moving and began to pan back and there I could see that the boat was still tied to the dock.

Through this picture God was telling this man that he was depending waaaaaay to much on his own understanding and intellect. He was doing all this "good" work but getting nowhere due to his remaining tied to what he understanding instead of launching out into the deep.

This man then told me that was a big problem with Him and that for sometime now, God had been telling Him to do things that to him made no sense, but he knew now that he had to put what made sense to him aside and take a step of faith.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

A curious remark. I can only imagine that you made it because I have annoyed you in some way, in which case I apologise. I was simply stating the dangers of a wrong idea, and further pointing out that even if the person espousing the idea had not fallen foul of those dangers, it doesn't follow that the idea is therefore sound after all. My premise was based on the fact that we can believe one thing and not follow it through consistently. We are human.

No Theophilus, you have not annoyed me. I'm sorry to have come across so flippantly. Like I stated above I'm just a little apprehensive about where you're going with this and getting the feeling that I'm going to come out looking foolish. . .but that is my problem, not yours.

 

[MsAnne]

I know this can be an emotional subject. I've heard both sides before.

Personally, I consider myself as leaning more toward Charasmatic.
I also consider myself a thinker.
I don't consider myself an exception.

 

[Theophilus7]

No Theophilus, you have not annoyed me. I'm sorry to have come across so flippantly. Like I stated above I'm just a little apprehensive about where you're going with this and getting the feeling that I'm going to come out looking foolish. . .but that is my problem, not yours.

Ah, now here's a humble person. I understand your feelings, I believe. It certainly isn't my intention to make anybody look small. (Besides, I have no superior qualifications to boast about. I gave up the opportunity to go to university at the Lord's [last minute!] direction several years ago, and although I believe university is still in His plans for me, it hasn't happened yet...)

I think my main reason for starting this post was to try to get some kind of cross-section of "Charismatic" views on theology. I had picked up the view from various quarters that Charismatics are generally weak in this department. I'm not sure how true that is. I have also observed the anti-intellectual tendencies of some popular Charismatic teaching, and hoped to discuss the subject of how to successfully fuse the spiritual and intellectual in the Christian life. This was vaguely what I had in mind.

God bless,

Theophilus7

 

[TheScottsMen]

I can see the reason behind the main topic. First off, I'm a WOF'ER. What I have seen in different Pentecostal/WOF/Charismatic churches is that some frown on College based pastors. I didn't say most! Just some! When I was a Lutheran I didn't see this as a Lutheran minister by norm must be college educated. Many seem to think that those that goto college for the ministry are going for a "career". Some may, but I beg to argue, most aren't. I myself am finishing up my 4th year in Theology Studies (Pastoral) and have felt called from day one to day this. Heck, even the apostles had 3 1/2 years of Jesus College Not to mention Paul (Pharisee), Daniel, Moses etc.. I think it really depends on the college you are attending. A lot of them (and this is where the generalization comes in) are spiritually dead. Thus not being Seminars but Cemeteries.

Anyway's, that's my two cents. College or no College, meditating on the word is what needs to be done for furthering ones self with God.

TSM

 

[Lee]

True.

 

[MikeMcK]

Much to our shame, charismatics tend not to be deep thinkers. There are a couple of things that bear this out.

The charismatic movement, more than any other group within the church constantly invites false teaching in.

There seems to be little or no discernemt in the church and the Bible and writings of the great men and women of the faith go out the window in favor of experience.

There's an idea among us that God no longer moves through His word but through the next big miracle.

I can't tell you how many churches I've been asked to minister in where the whole congregation is just insane during a service, nothing is orderly or within the Bible's guidelines for a church service and where people jump up and "prophesy" completely unBiblical things simply because their emotion overtakes them.

 

[Theophilus7]

The charismatic movement, more than any other group within the church constantly invites false teaching in. WoF, Third Wave, Latter Rain, Born again Jesus, etc.

I think you may be breaking forum rules, MikeMcK , but I'll leave that to Quaffer. Regarding "WoF" and "Third Wave", two movements I have some knowledge of (though not a great deal); yes, there are some doctrines in both these camps that I disagree with, but to dump it all on the "false teaching" trash heap seems a little extreme!

 

[MikeMcK]

I think you may be breaking forum rules, MikeMcK , but I'll leave that to Quaffer. Regarding "WoF" and "Third Wave", two movements I have some knowledge of (though not a great deal); yes, there are some doctrines in both these camps that I disagree with, but to dump it all on the "false teaching" trash heap seems a little extreme!

What did I say that wasn't true?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Much to our shame, charismatics tend not to be deep thinkers. There are a couple of things that bear this out.

The charismatic movement, more than any other group within the church constantly invites false teaching in. WoF, Third Wave, Latter Rain, Born again Jesus, etc.

There seems to be little or no discernemt in the church and the Bible and writings of the great men and women of the faith go out the window in favor of experience.

There's an idea among us that God no longer moves through His word but through the next big miracle.

I can't tell you how many churches I've been asked to minister in where the whole congregation is just insane during a service, nothing is orderly or within the Bible's guidelines for a church service and where people jump up and "prophesy" completely unBiblical things simply because their emotion overtakes them.

What you are describing has nothing to do with the level of intellegence of the congregation. It has to do with the level of soulish control. "Logic and reason" comes from the same place as "emotion" and the insane behaviour you describe. I came out of a church which was exactly the opposite of what you are talking about. Cold, dead, objective.... uggggggg. But these two churches have the same problem, just at different ends of the soulish spectrum. Where you are calling your soulish-emotional people "un-intellegent", I would say the soulish-objective people are "cold and dead." Neither is good. The solution is to get out of the soulish realm altogether. The church needs to be sensitive to the Spirit, and walk in the spirit.