Are Charismatics thinkers?

[look]

Uh-oh! It's a job for Didaman!!!

I agree with Gary, you have also been one of the most cool, level-headed people who haven't retaliated against all of the accusations of being heretics, cultic or any of the other lies and misunderstandings I've seen here...Good job, brother!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

aw gee guys...

 

[look]

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Didaskolas

Also, I have been to BereanOnline. Love it!
I've read the posted articles. Excellent!
However, I don't know how to go any further, when I click on main it calls for name and password, which I don't have so am denied. I am interested in checking further into BereanOnline.

Thanks
Gary

Hi Gary,
Thanks for the kind comments.
I have had a few other people state they were being asked for a password at the site. ???
Try this link:
http://www.bereanonline.com/rcframe.html
Let me know if you get the same results.
Peace

 

[Andrew]

Mike,

Actually they do teach that He became a sinner based on a serious misapplication of 1Col 5.

Can't find 1Col5 (verse?). As far as I know, I've never heard any WOF person teaching that Christ became a sinner. The only teach, as do others, that Christ was made sin on the cross, as the scripture teaches. He knew no sin (ie never sinned) but was made sin so that we who knew no righteous acts, can be made righteous.

IOW He did not sin but became sin. We did not do any good deeds but became righteous -- the divine exchange.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Mike,



Can't find 1Col5 (verse?). As far as I know, I've never heard any WOF person teaching that Christ became a sinner. The only teach, as do others, that Christ was made sin on the cross, as the scripture teaches. He knew no sin (ie never sinned) but was made sin so that we who knew no righteous acts, can be made righteous.

IOW He did not sin but became sin. We did not do any good deeds but became righteous -- the divine exchange.

I think Mike is referring to 2 Cor 5:17-21.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 LITV

17 So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!
18 And all things are from God, the One having reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 as, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not charging their deviations to them, and having put the Word of reconciliation in us.
20 Then on behalf of Christ, we are ambassadors, as God is exhorting through us, we beseech on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God.
21 For He made the One who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

WOF people (and others) presents verse 21 as meaning that Christ was "made sin" or made sinful... without actually ever sinning. This verse, together with others in Eph, Col, Rom, and the Gospels indicate that He became one with us in spiritual death so that we would be one with Him when the Father raised Him up out of that death. Like it says in Ephesians 2:

Eph 2
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

We ask... how can you be made alive together from the death caused by sin if you are not dead together?

Also, if He was not really made sin for us... then does that mean that we are not really the righteousness of God in Him?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

IOW He did not sin but became sin. We did not do any good deeds but became righteous -- the divine exchange.

Brother Andy,
It really was not an exchange in the same way that the suffering on the cross was an exchange. On the cross, the physical body of Jesus was inflicted with all the sickness and results of sin because He was made a curse for us. He was taking the punishment for the sins of the world on His physical body. That was an exchange. But what happened in the spirit realm was much much more. That was not an exchange. That was a union. Jesus was make one with all those who would ever believe into His death burial and resurrection. A new creation came into being on that day, and we are now one with Jesus and the divine nature in the same way we were once one with Adam and the fallen nature. Jesus is the head of this new creation and we are the individual parts of His body. When God raised up Jesus from the spiritual death He willingly took upon Himself, we, as members of His body, rasied up with Him and received the same life He has. We are litterally and actually a part of Christ as described in 1 Cor 12, Ephesians 1-3, and many other places in the NT. It is no longer we that live, it is Christ that lives in us. The old Adamic spirit that was dead was done away, and it has be replaced with this new creation that God brought into being when He raised Jesus (and us) from the dead. This is why I say it is not really a substitution here... it is a new creature!

 

[Andrew]

hobie bro,

agree with everything you said. perhaps i wasnt being too clear in my concept. what i meant by the "exhange" is simply verse 21.

If Jesus did not bear our sins, we would not be able to have his righteousness. If Jesus did not bear our sickness, we woud be able to have his divine health. If Jesus was not made poor on the cross, we would not be made rich etc.

I know its more than substitution. Gosh, I dont think we'll ever fully understnd and fully appreciate what Jesus did, at least not while we're on earth. We're only scracthing the surface of God's grace!

 

[Gary M]

Hi Didaskalos

I tried the link (from your post above), but got the same results.
A dialog box says "connect to...." and has fields for a username and password. Still can't go any further.

Gary

 

[look]

Hi Didaskalos

I tried the link (from your post above), but got the same results.
A dialog box says "connect to...." and has fields for a username and password. Still can't go any further.

Gary

I can access all of the links, except for the "Main" link. When I click on "Main" then I get a popup box asking for password and name...Is that the way it is supposed to operate?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Hi Didaskalos

I tried the link (from your post above), but got the same results.
A dialog box says "connect to...." and has fields for a username and password. Still can't go any further.

Gary

Gary and Look,
Thanks for the heads up on the main.html... somehow it got replaced with an .asp page. I repaired the link and now it works. All it did was return you to the "Natural Spirituality" page. Let me know if you find any others that do not work!
Thanks again!

 

[SnuP]

hear is an interesting idea.

Charasmatics are thinkers, they have to be, to be able to discern the difference between the wisdom of the world and God's will.

The reason the we throw off the intellectual minute combing of scripture is that such persuits don't lead to life in Christ, but instead lead to leagalism. We are to search the scripture and know it as God does, but that knowing should reside with in the understanding of God, by virtues of experincing Him.

Try this on for size.

Study God, not the Bible. Study the Spirit, not the letter.

use Scripture to see God and hear God and fellowship with God.

The Bible is usless without a conversation.