Are all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true?

[gadar perets]

Isaiah 9 is written as a birth announcement regarding Hezekiah.

A "birth announcement" about a 39 year old king? I think not.

It even uses the past tense regarding his birth (כִּֽי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּ֚ן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ "a child was born to us, a son was given to us" - the future would have been יִוָּלֵד and יִנָּתֵן, respectively). Why should it not be speaking about the child just born who would become the king of Judah (וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמ֑וֹ "and the governance is [has become] upon his shoulders" - "and the responsibility for governing is his")? In fact, even the "and his name will be called" is actually in the past tense (וַיִּקְרָ֨א for the past instead of וְקָרָא for the future). The child had already been named in this text. I don't see the problem there.[/QUOTE]
The Almighty knows the end from the beginning. He is declaring the birth and giving of the son as though it was a completed action even though it hadn't occurred yet. Consider Isa 5:13:

Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. ​

The people had not yet gone into captivity, yet the Almighty saw that end and inspired Isaiah to prophesy about a future event as though it was a completed event.

Consider, also, Isaiah 53 were the "Suffering Servant" is spoken of in the past tense. Many Jews believe this refers to Israel suffering in Isaiah's future even though it is written as past.

The problem you should be seeing is that Hezekiah does NOT fit the prophecy. See my next post.

 

[gadar perets]

"Father of perpetuity" - That God extended his life by fifteen years and gave him a full life.

Extending his life by fifteen years does not even come close to “perpetuity”. The word means “perpetual, endless, eternity”. The Hebrew word “ad” was translated “forever”, “forevermore”, “eternity”, “everlasting”, “perpetual” and “ever”. Hezekiah did not live forever, but Yeshua will.

"Peaceful ruler" - Since Jerusalem saw peace in his day and did not fall to the Assyrians as the people had feared.

Just because YHWH allowed Jerusalem to see peace in Hezekiah’s day does not make Hezekiah a “peaceful ruler”. 2 Kings 18:13 tells us the Assyrians took all the fenced cities of Judah. It matters not that one of his cities was spared if all the rest fell. 2 Kings 18:8 tell us he “smote the Philistines”. Hezekiah was not a peaceful ruler, nor did he live in peace in his days except for possibly a few years near the end of his life. Yeshua, on the other hand, will bring peace to the entire earth at the appointed time.

 

[yonah_mishael]

A "birth announcement" about a 39 year old king? I think not.

Where do you see in this text that Hezekiah was already 39 years old? Where do you see any passage of time between chapters 7 and 9? Where did you get this number?

The Almighty knows the end from the beginning. He is declaring the birth and giving of the son as though it was a completed action even though it hadn't occurred yet. Consider Isa 5:13:

Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.​

The people had not yet gone into captivity, yet the Almighty saw that end and inspired Isaiah to prophesy about a future event as though it was a completed event.

A fair point that sometimes the perfect can be used in a way of saying that something has been decided to happen and will - because it's seen as a completed and whole event (the whole concept of the perfective Aktionsart). However, it is certainly overapplied by some to make things seem to be prophecy when they are not.

Consider, also, Isaiah 53 were the "Suffering Servant" is spoken of in the past tense. Many Jews believe this refers to Israel suffering in Isaiah's future even though it is written as past.

The problem you should be seeing is that Hezekiah does NOT fit the prophecy. See my next post.

Isaiah 53 is written as past from the perspective of the speaker, not from our perspective. The speaker is someone in the future - either the pagan kings or those of Israel as a result of whose sins the righteous suffered. Either way, they are looking at it from the perspective of the future, as if Israel had already been redeemed.

Haven't seen your next post yet.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Extending his life by fifteen years does not even come close to “perpetuity”. The word means “perpetual, endless, eternity”. The Hebrew word “ad” was translated “forever”, “forevermore”, “eternity”, “everlasting”, “perpetual” and “ever”. Hezekiah did not live forever, but Yeshua will.

I never understand this argument that “a gloss I learned was X, therefore this word means X in every context.” That's nonsense. עד can certainly mean “a long time” without meaning “forever.” Do you not know that it can also be a preposition meaning “until” or “as long as”? Context determines meaning, not glosses. Besides, exaggeration is the name of the game when praising a king.

Just because YHWH allowed Jerusalem to see peace in Hezekiah’s day does not make Hezekiah a “peaceful ruler”. 2 Kings 18:13 tells us the Assyrians took all the fenced cities of Judah. It matters not that one of his cities was spared if all the rest fell. 2 Kings 18:8 tell us he “smote the Philistines”. Hezekiah was not a peaceful ruler, nor did he live in peace in his days except for possibly a few years near the end of his life. Yeshua, on the other hand, will bring peace to the entire earth at the appointed time.

Oh, having a peaceful rule does not make him a peaceful ruler? You’ve got me stumped how you came to that conclusion. The actual prophecy about this event said that Assyria would wash through like a flood, “sweep on into Judah, swirling over it, passing through it and reaching up to the neck” (Isaiah 8:8, NIV). The fact that he managed to protect Jerusalem through this flood of invasion without fighting is enough to say that he was a ruler whose reign was characterized by peace. He didn’t wage war – even though it could easily have happened! These “names” are intended to point out specific events of Hezekiah’s life, not to turn him into a god.

 

[gadar perets]

Where do you see in this text that Hezekiah was already 39 years old? Where do you see any passage of time between chapters 7 and 9? Where did you get this number?

I read somewhere that several Jewish writers like Jarchi and Aben Ezra believed Isa 9:6 was written to encourage Hezekiah during the pending Assyrian invasion. Hezekiah was 39 when Sennacherib came against Judah (2 Kings 18:1, 13).

 

[gadar perets]

I never understand this argument that “a gloss I learned was X, therefore this word means X in every context.” That's nonsense. עד can certainly mean “a long time” without meaning “forever.” Do you not know that it can also be a preposition meaning “until” or “as long as”? Context determines meaning, not glosses. Besides, exaggeration is the name of the game when praising a king.

So are you saying that Hezekiah was the "Father of until" or "Father of as long as"? What about the word "Father" denoting he is the first cause of something. What is he the "Father" of? Extended life? He is not the "Father of (a preposition)". Yeshua is the "Father of Eternity" because eternal life comes to us through him.

Oh, having a peaceful rule does not make him a peaceful ruler? You’ve got me stumped how you came to that conclusion.

That is not what I wrote. He did not have a peaceful rule until the final years of his life.

The actual prophecy about this event said that Assyria would wash through like a flood, “sweep on into Judah, swirling over it, passing through it and reaching up to the neck” (Isaiah 8:8, NIV). The fact that he managed to protect Jerusalem through this flood of invasion without fighting is enough to say that he was a ruler whose reign was characterized by peace. He didn’t wage war – even though it could easily have happened!

He didn't wage war with the Assyrians, but he did with the Philistines.

These “names” are intended to point out specific events of Hezekiah’s life, not to turn him into a god.

Unlike most Christians, I do not make Yeshua into a god or worse "God" (YHWH). The "names" refer to the ultimate ruler of Israel, HaMaschiach", who would truly be a Wonderful Counselor, a mighty el/warrior, a Father of eternity and a Prince of Peace . I believe that promised Messiah was Yeshua.

 

[yonah_mishael]

So are you saying that Hezekiah was the "Father of until" or "Father of as long as"? What about the word "Father" denoting he is the first cause of something. What is he the "Father" of? Extended life? He is not the "Father of (a preposition)". Yeshua is the "Father of Eternity" because eternal life comes to us through him.

"Father of" (אֲבִי) can mean "possessing" in the same way that "son of" (בֵּן \ בַּר) can mean "belonging to" or "participant in" and "husband of" (בַּעַל) can mean "possessing." A ben brit is not the "son" of a covenant. It means "one who participates in a treaty, an ally." A baal nisayon rav is someone who "possesses a lot of experience," not someone who is "master of great experience." You are being overly literal when you understand "father of" to mean "original cause of" in this expression. It means "a person who lives a long life." It doesn't mean "the eternal father" or something like that.

That is not what I wrote. He did not have a peaceful rule until the final years of his life.

He attained a level of peace for Jerusalem through his righteousness (this is how we are to understand his deeds according to the Tanach) that would not have been attained under some other king. It was because of his faithfulness to God that his life was extended and that he was able not to lose Jerusalem to the Assyrians. The names Pele-Yoets-El-Gibbor-Avi-Ad-Sar-Shalom reflects all of these things - his seeking the council of God to work wonders for Judah, the extension of his life on account of his trust in God, and the fact that he did not lose his capital and have his kingdom break apart. I don't know what name could be more aptly written to summarize the life of Hezekiah as reflected in the words of the Tanach.

He didn't wage war with the Assyrians, but he did with the Philistines.

He was able to secure the stability of Jerusalem through trust in God. Battles with the Philistines would, at this point, be a distraction from the point.

Unlike most Christians, I do not make Yeshua into a god or worse "God" (YHWH). The "names" refer to the ultimate ruler of Israel, HaMaschiach", who would truly be a Wonderful Counselor, a mighty el/warrior, a Father of eternity and a Prince of Peace . I believe that promised Messiah was Yeshua.

I'm aware that you, along with everyone else on this forum, believe that. You're free to have your belief. That isn't the point of this text, however.

 

[gadar perets]

"Father of" (אֲבִי) can mean "possessing" in the same way that "son of" (בֵּן \ בַּר) can mean "belonging to" or "participant in" and "husband of" (בַּעַל) can mean "possessing." ... You are being overly literal when you understand "father of" to mean "original cause of" in this expression. It means "a person who lives a long life." It doesn't mean "the eternal father" or something like that.

Can you site some examples of אֲבִי meaning "possessing"?

I agree it doesn't mean "eternal father". If it meant "a person who lives a long life", then I would think Methuselah would be the "possessor of", "Father of long life".

 

[gadar perets]

Avi-ad means "my father is eternal", a name of Yeshua (or a symbolic forerunner, rather) that refers to his father, God. Simplest explanation, you just got razored.

Look, we have names like abigail, being a woman's name. Several female names begin with Avi. "Avi" is of course interpreted correct in those instances as "my father---" rather than "father of---". But apparently people have too much of an agenda to just let the words be what they are.

"My Father is eternal" works as well, but would you agree that "Father of eternity" can easily be applied to Yeshua since eternal life comes to us through him?

 

[BABerean2]

"The Forbidden Chapter" in the Tanakh

The Seed Promise…

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Isaiah 53 is not forbidden by anyone. It is misunderstood and poorly interpreted by most. This passage should be called "the misunderstood chapter" (הפרק הלא מובן).

 

[AbbaLove]

Orthodoxy interprets this passage as referring to a baby born just after the prophecy was delivered. It is not interpreted to refer to anyone at any future time. It is interpreted to refer to something that happened within the lifetime of Ahaz.

Messianic Jews are well aware that Jewish Orthodoxy does not believe in the NT Gospels or that Yeshua HaMoshiach is their LORD (Adonai) and Saviour. Are you suggesting/implying that you believe Jewish Orthodoxy trumps Messianic Judaism?

Isaiah 9:6-7 CJB
5 (6) For a child is born to us,a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name
Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],
6 (7) in order to extend the dominion and perpetuate the peace of the throne and kingdom of David, to secure it and sustain it through justice and righteousness henceforth and forever. The zeal of Adonai-Tzva’ot will accomplish this.

1 Corinthians 1:18 CJB
For the message about the execution-stake is nonsense to those in the process of being destroyed, but to us in the process of being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18 YLT
for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God,

Deuteronomy 21:23…Cursed is he that hangs on a tree…Galatians 3:10-13 47

The LORD of Hosts, Adonai Tzva’ot, Will Deliver Israel Again
https://janediffenderfer.wordpress....osts-adonai-tzvaot-will-deliver-israel-again/​

 

[yonah_mishael]

Are you suggesting/implying that you believe Jewish Orthodoxy trumps Messianic Judaism?

"Trumps" it? No. That would suggest that Orthodoxy is correct on the merit of it being Orthodoxy. No, no, no. The position of Orthodoxy is correct because it interprets the texts accurately, not because it trumps some other position. If another group interpreted it better, they would have the upper hand. It's not about trumping or overriding another group.

 

[visionary]

"Trumps" it? No. That would suggest that Orthodoxy is correct on the merit of it being Orthodoxy. No, no, no. The position of Orthodoxy is correct because it interprets the texts accurately, not because it trumps some other position. If another group interpreted it better, they would have the upper hand. It's not about trumping or overriding another group.

OR... it is that orthodoxy makes the rules of what is correct and thus is considered having the upper hand... something like the Pharisees of the days of old.... letter of the law... missing the spirit of truth.

 

[yonah_mishael]

OR... it is that orthodoxy makes the rules of what is correct and thus is considered having the upper hand... something like the Pharisees of the days of old.... letter of the law... missing the spirit of truth.

And you think that I would be interested in furthering the Orthodox monopoly on the halachah? I don't think so.

 

[visionary]

And you think that I would be interested in furthering the Orthodox monopoly on the halachah? I don't think so.

Me neither....lol

 

[AbbaLove]

Isaiah 9:6-7 CJB
5 (6) For a child is born to us,a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name
Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],
6 (7) in order to extend the dominion and perpetuate the peace of the throne and kingdom of David, to secure it and sustain it through justice and righteousness henceforth and forever. The zeal of Adonai-Tzva’ot will accomplish this.

Orthodoxy interprets this passage as referring to a baby born just after the prophecy was delivered. It is not interpreted to refer to anyone at any future time. It is interpreted to refer to something that happened within the lifetime of Ahaz.

Jewish Orthodoxy does not accept the Messiah Yeshua of the Gospels as their Lord and Saviour​

John 3:9-12 CJB
9 Nakdimon replied, “How can this happen?”
10 Yeshua answered him, “You hold the office of teacher in Isra’el, and you don’t know this?
11 Yes, indeed! I tell you that what we speak about, we know; and what we give evidence of, we have seen; but you people don’t accept our evidence!
12 If you people don’t believe me when I tell you about the things of the world, how will you believe me when I tell you about the things of heaven?
13 No one has gone up into heaven; there is only the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moshe lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that everyone who trusts in Him may have eternal life.

"The Messiah is G-D revealing Himself to us in human form"
(0:46-0:52)

"We will prove to you and our people that modern orthodox Rabbis are willing to not only
ignore their own role models, but also to twist and manipulate the Hebrew scriptures
all in order to hide Yeshua the Messiah from our people"
(2:08-2:26)

Shabbat Shalom​

​

 

[danny ski]

Isaiah 9:6-7 CJB
5 (6) For a child is born to us,a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name
Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],
6 (7) in order to extend the dominion and perpetuate the peace of the throne and kingdom of David, to secure it and sustain it through justice and righteousness henceforth and forever. The zeal of Adonai-Tzva’ot will accomplish this.

Jewish Orthodoxy does not accept the Messiah Yeshua of the Gospels as their Lord and Saviour​

John 3:9-12 CJB
9 Nakdimon replied, “How can this happen?”
10 Yeshua answered him, “You hold the office of teacher in Isra’el, and you don’t know this?
11 Yes, indeed! I tell you that what we speak about, we know; and what we give evidence of, we have seen; but you people don’t accept our evidence!
12 If you people don’t believe me when I tell you about the things of the world, how will you believe me when I tell you about the things of heaven?
13 No one has gone up into heaven; there is only the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moshe lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that everyone who trusts in Him may have eternal life.

"The Messiah is G-D revealing Himself to us in human form"
(0:46-0:52)

"We will prove to you and our people that modern orthodox Rabbis are willing to not only
ignore their own role models, but also to twist and manipulate the Hebrew scriptures
all in order to hide Yeshua the Messiah from our people"
(2:08-2:26)

Shabbat Shalom​

​

"...twist and manipulate the Hebrew scriptures..."-a bold statement. Especially on this thread where random verses are used to produce a conclusion.

 

[AbbaLove]

"...twist and manipulate the Hebrew scriptures..."-a bold statement. Especially on this thread where random verses are used to produce a conclusion.

Jewish Rabbi's have *misrepresented Yeshua HaMashiach as not being Israel's Messiah and your Lord.

Matthew 28:11-15 CJB
11 As they were going, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the head cohanim everything that had happened.
12 Then they met with the elders; and after discussing the matter, they gave the soldiers a sizeable sum of money
13 and said to them, “Tell people, ‘Histalmidim came during the night and stole his body while we were sleeping.’
14 If the governor hears of it, we will put things right with him and keep you from getting in trouble.”
15 The soldiers took the money and did as they were told, *and this story has been spread about by Judeans till this very day.

All Scripture (Tanach - Torah, Prophets, Writings) which is completed in the Ketuvei HaShalichim (the Apostolic Writings, commonly known as the New Testament) is given by the Breath/Spirit of Elohim [G-d], and is to be used for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness. (II Timothy 3:15-17, I Thessalonians 2:13, II Peter 1:21)​

Hopefully, you haven't been deceived into believing that Yeshua is not Israel's promised Messiah as this Messianic forum proclaims. Messianic Jews not only know their Torah, but believe the Words of Adonai Yeshua as found in the Ketuveh HaShalichim This knowledge has the great advantage of correctly interpreting the Words of the Prophets in the Tanakh. Propheices that have been *twisted by Orthodox Judaism, but correctly understood by Messianic Jews.

Isaiah 9:6-7 CJB
5 (6) For a child is born to us,a son is given to us; dominion will rest on His shoulders, and He will be given the name
Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],
6 (7) in order to extend the dominion and perpetuate the peace of the throne and kingdom of David, to secure it and sustain it through justice and righteousness henceforth and forever. The zeal of Adonai-Tzva’ot will accomplish this.

Isaiah 7:14 CJB
Therefore Adonai himself will give you people a sign: the young woman will become pregnant, bear a son and name him ‘Immanu El [God is with us].

Matthew 1:23 CJB
“The virgin will conceive and bear a son, and they will call him ‘Immanu El.”

Far from being "random" the complete Word reinforces His Truth

​

 

[danny ski]

Jewish Rabbi's have *misrepresented Yeshua HaMashiach as not being Israel's Messiah and your Lord.

Matthew 28:11-15 CJB
11 As they were going, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the head cohanim everything that had happened.
12 Then they met with the elders; and after discussing the matter, they gave the soldiers a sizeable sum of money
13 and said to them, “Tell people, ‘Histalmidim came during the night and stole his body while we were sleeping.’
14 If the governor hears of it, we will put things right with him and keep you from getting in trouble.”
15 The soldiers took the money and did as they were told, *and this story has been spread about by Judeans till this very day.

All Scripture (Tanach - Torah, Prophets, Writings) which is completed in the Ketuvei HaShalichim (the Apostolic Writings, commonly known as the New Testament) is given by the Breath/Spirit of Elohim [G-d], and is to be used for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness. (II Timothy 3:15-17, I Thessalonians 2:13, II Peter 1:21)​

Hopefully, you haven't been deceived into believing that Yeshua is not Israel's promised Messiah as this Messianic forum proclaims. Messianic Jews not only know their Torah, but believe the Words of Adonai Yeshua as found in the Ketuveh HaShalichim This knowledge has the great advantage of correctly interpreting the Words of the Prophets in the Tanakh. Propheices that have been *twisted by Orthodox Judaism, but correctly understood by Messianic Jews.

Isaiah 9:6-7 CJB
5 (6) For a child is born to us,a son is given to us; dominion will rest on His shoulders, and He will be given the name
Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],
6 (7) in order to extend the dominion and perpetuate the peace of the throne and kingdom of David, to secure it and sustain it through justice and righteousness henceforth and forever. The zeal of Adonai-Tzva’ot will accomplish this.

Isaiah 7:14 CJB
Therefore Adonai himself will give you people a sign: the young woman will become pregnant, bear a son and name him ‘Immanu El [God is with us].

Matthew 1:23 CJB
“The virgin will conceive and bear a son, and they will call him ‘Immanu El.”

Far from being "random" the complete Word reinforces His Truth

​

The first seven chapters of Isaiah provide context for your "prophecy" in 7:14. I encourage you to read it.