Are all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true?

[daq]

The first seven chapters of Isaiah provide context for your "prophecy" in 7:14. I encourage you to read it.

Yeah, how can they be right when it was clearly Yohanan and Yonathan, (whose soul was knit together as one with David), who ate wild honey from the tips of their staffs? I sincerely hope no one here is inadvertently worshiping Yohanan the Immerser for worshiping a man just because they do not understand allegorical prophetic utterances such as Isaiah 7:15-22 and how the appearance of Yohanan may have radically changed when the hired razor was used to shave off all his hair in the fire upon the Yarden, (for he was a Nazarite, and a hairy man like Eliyahu, before that fiery immersion upon the water).
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[AbbaLove]

Isaiah 53 is not forbidden by anyone. It is misunderstood and poorly interpreted by most. This passage should be called "the misunderstood chapter" (הפרק הלא מובן).

It's mostly Orthodox Jews that misinterpret Isaiah 53, and reject Yeshua as their Messiah. So, you're correct when you say it is "the misunderstood chapter" by Jewish Orthodoxy, but correctly interpreted by the vast majority of the growing Messianic Community in Israel.

Yeshua was assigned to earth and its redemption. All matters were in His hands since the foundation of the world. Any mention of God is a mention of Yeshua. Genesis 17:19…….The Seed of Isaac…….Romans. 9:7

John 1:1 ~ Complete Jewish Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Yochanan 1:1 ~ Orthodox Jewish Bible
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11;BERESHIS 1:3], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with, etzel,Mishle 8:30;30:4) Hashem, and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13 i.e., the Ma’amar Memra]
Luke 2:11 ~ Aramaic English New Testament
For today is born to you in the city of David the Savior who is Master YHWH, the Mashiyach.

Now, more than ever Israeli Jews are coming to know Yeshua as their LORD and Savior by correctly understanding Isaiah 53 and reading the Jewish Gospels(Good News). More and more Israeli Jews are opening their eyes to see that Yeshua is not Italian or an "elohim", but in fact very Jewish who became the reconciliation of God. Especially for Israel (and for gentile nations), through the sacrificial death of Yeshua, so that Ruach HaKodesh can abide in His people. How else can all of Israel be saved so as to: Love the LORD with all their heart, their soul, their strength and their body (Deuteronomy 6:5 and Luke 10:27).

Jeremiah 24:7 ~ Complete Jewish Bible
I will give them a heart to know me that I am Adonai. They will be my people, and I will be their God; for they will return to me with all their heart.

Romans 8:9 ~ Complete Jewish Bible (to the Messianic Community of Jews and Gentiles)
9 But you, you do not identify with your old nature, but with the Spirit — provided the Spirit of God is living inside you, for anyone who doesn’t have the Spirit of the Messiah doesn’t belong to Him.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ~ Complete Jewish Bible (to the Messianic Community of Jews and Gentiles)
19 Or don’t you know that your body is a temple for the Ruach HaKodesh who lives inside you, whom you received from God? The fact is, you don’t belong to yourselves;
20 for you were bought at a price. So use your bodies to glorify God.

​

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him, as one that is in bitterness for his first born. (Zechariah 12:10)

Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Revelation 1:7)
​

 

[daq]

It's mostly Orthodox Jews that misinterpret Isaiah 53, and reject Yeshua as their Messiah. So, you're correct when you say it is "the misunderstood chapter" by Jewish Orthodoxy, but correctly interpreted by the vast majority of the growing Messianic Community in Israel.

There are some hints and clues that even Paul understood and upheld the Orthodox view concerning Isaiah 53, for instance, he says that Messiah must be formed in you, (hence the mystery, O ye of "all Yisrael", ).
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[AbbaLove]

There are some hints and clues that even Paul understood and upheld the Orthodox view concerning Isaiah 53, for instance, he says that Messiah must be formed in you, (hence the mystery, O ye of "all Yisrael", ).

Yeshua Himself is the true Jewish Orthodoxy of Elohim. Of all the verses in the Tanakh it is Isaiah 53 that has been most instrumental in opening Jewish eyes to recognize their true Orthodoxy thanks to the complete Jewish Bible, and as you say ... "that Messiah must be formed in you" in order for what was a secular Jewish or gentile mindset to comprehend true Orthodoxy.

Ephesians 3:17-19 CJB
17 so that the Messiah may live in your hearts through your trusting. Also I pray that you will be rooted and founded in love,
18 so that you, with all God’s people, will be given strength to grasp the breadth, length, height and depth of the Messiah’s love,
19 yes, to know it, even though it is beyond all knowing, so that you will be filled with all the fullness of God.

 

[daq]

Yeshua Himself is the true Jewish Orthodoxy of Elohim. Of all the verses in the Tanakh it is Isaiah 53 that has been most instrumental in opening Jewish eyes to recognize their true Orthodoxy thanks to the complete Jewish Bible, and as you say ... "that Messiah must be formed in you" in order for what was a secular Jewish or gentile mindset to comprehend true Orthodoxy.

Ephesians 3:17-19 CJB
17 so that the Messiah may live in your hearts through your trusting. Also I pray that you will be rooted and founded in love,
18 so that you, with all God’s people, will be given strength to grasp the breadth, length, height and depth of the Messiah’s love,
19 yes, to know it, even though it is beyond all knowing, so that you will be filled with all the fullness of God.

Ephesians 3:14-19
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father:
15 from whom every family in heavens and on earth is named:
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, that you may be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inward man:
17 that Messiah may dwell in your hearts through faithfulness; to the end that you, being rooted and grounded in love:
18 may be fully competent to apprehend together with all the holy ones [of Yisrael] what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth:
19 to know [both] the surpassing-excellence of the knowledge and the love of Messiah, so that you may be filled unto all the fullness of Elohim.

For by his knowledge are we made right or "justified", (Isaiah 53:11).
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[Lulav]

IN CASE YOU MISSED IT IN THE OP
The preceding posts have been extracted from another thread
as they were Off Topic
Please continue that discussion here
keeping in mind the SOP of this forum
as well as the Site wide Rules

​

 

[AbbaLove]

For by his knowledge are we made right or "justified", (Isaiah 53:11).

In that we are "justified" by His Knowledge (His Covenant for both Jew and non-Jew) it seems proper to capitalize "He" "Him" "His" whether referring to Elohim or referring to our Lord (Yeshua HaMashiach).

It's confusing to a Jewish community that rejects Yeshua when a Messianic refers to the Father's only begotten Son (Immanu-El) conceived by Ruach HaKodesh as "elohim" ... while at the same time worshiping Yeshua HaMashiach as Lord.

John 8:57-58 ~ “Why, you’re not yet fifty years old,” the Judeans replied, “and you have seen Avraham?” Yeshua said to them, “Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!” ("I AM that I AM" implying plurality)

It was understandable that the scribes and Pharisees would accuse Yeshua of making Himself out to be God. When considering the above scripture as well as Yeshua's approval of Thomas' outcry in front of the other Disciples, and as well as Yeshua's previous reply (before being resurrected) to Phillip it's rather obvious that Yeshua is more than an "elohim."

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Yeshua said to him, “Have you trusted because you have seen me? How blessed are those who do not see, but trust anyway!”

Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"​

Every Day is Father's Day
~ Happy Dad's Day ~​

 

[daq]

In that we are "justified" by His Knowledge (His Covenant for both Jew and non-Jew) it seems proper to capitalize "He" "Him" "His" whether referring to Elohim or referring to our Lord (Yeshua HaMashiach).

The suffering servant should be capitalized? The suffering servant is the all Yisrael and olive tree of the Father. Perhaps that also is why Paul states that he bears the stigmata of Messiah in his own body, (Galatians 6:17, see also Colossians 1:24 and perhaps do a study of the statements of Paul concerning our own sufferings as fellow partakers with and in Messiah Yeshua). Messiah must therefore be formed in you: that means you must become the suffering servant. The only way for you to do that is by having, upholding, and walking out the full Testimony of Yeshua in faithfulness and uprightness because it is by his knowledge that you are made right. If you do not do his word then you do not become sanctified or justified. This includes upholding his Testimony in truth and uprightness in our doctrine, (not perverting it for our own paradigm and doctrinal benefit).

Isaiah 53:11 KJV
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

It's confusing to a Jewish community that rejects Yeshua when a Messianic refers to the Father's only begotten Son (Immanu-El) conceived by Ruach HaKodesh as "elohim" ... while at the same time worshiping Yeshua HaMashiach as Lord.

Who said I worship the Word of the Father? I worship the Father, in His Word, and honor the Word of the Father. Where does the Father tell you to worship His Word? He rather says, bow the knee, or, Kiss the Son, lest he be just a little angry and you perish from the way, but those things are honor which is no different than bowing the knee to king David, (which is not the kind of worship you seem to be implying).

John 8:57-58 ~ “Why, you’re not yet fifty years old,” the Judeans replied, “and you have seen Avraham?” Yeshua said to them, “Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!” ("I AM that I AM" implying plurality)

It was understandable that the scribes and Pharisees would accuse Yeshua of making Himself out to be God.

Holding the Testimony of Yeshua in uprightness to the best of my ability I read the John 8:58 passage for what I believe it truly says regardless of religious conviction or doctrinal paradigm, "Amen, amen I say to you, I am before Abraham comes to pass", (or, "Before Abraham comes to pass, I am [he]"). So they took up stones to throw at him not because he claimed to preexist Abraham but because he implied that the covenant with Abraham was still not yet entirely fulfilled, (for all the prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan, Matthew 11:13).
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[visionary]

****MODERATOR NOTE****​

The following posts were split out from the original thread here,
this first post was not made by visionary, but by Moderator Lulav.​

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are all the passages claiming to be relating to Messiah in fact relating to him? Are some wishful thinking? Are there more than one meaning to certain verses? Such as a P'sht level and sod?


Not that they aren't true, but are they really in fact, referring to Messiah, or do some go too far?

The following posts were taken from a thread that was wishing to list all pertaining to Messiah but got a bit off track discussing this supposition.

Please continue the conversation here, keeping in mind the rules of this forum and the site-wide rules.

Thank You!

​

Just reminder everyone, I did not start this thread, and I would never name a thread of mine what is the title of this one.

 

[AbbaLove]

Isaiah 53:11 KJV
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isaiah 53:11 (NKJV)
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

Genesis 1:3 ~ Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
John 1:1 ~ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 ~ And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Like Thomas it is not dishonoring to God for a Messianic Jew to acknowledge Yeshua HaMashiach as "My Lord and my God" when it is scriptural. Similarily (like Visionary) it is not uncommon for Messianics to also agree when she says, "Yeshua was assigned to earth and its redemption. All matters were in His hands since the foundation of the world. Any mention of God is a mention of Yeshua." And when Vis replies to another Messianic member by saying, "Ahhh that is why you are having difficulty with Yeshua as "God in the flesh" it represents the view of some Messianics that don't believe that Yeshua HaMashiach is God although scripture tells us He represents "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9).

Also one can appreciate why some translations use all capitals (I AM) when quoting Yeshua and why capitalizing "His" "He" or "Him" is both honoring to the Father and Yeshua ... "I and the Father are one" ~ John 10:30

John 8:57-58 ~ “Why, you’re not yet fifty years old,” the Judeans replied, “and you have seen Avraham?” Yeshua said to them, “Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!” ("I AM that I AM" implying plurality of the Godhead)

Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God!” Yeshua said to him, “Have you trusted because you have seen me? How blessed are those who do not see, but trust anyway!”

Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

Just reminder everyone, I did not start this thread, and I would never name a thread of mine what is the title of this one.

Yes! It's a perplexing title that only contributes to the divisiveness.
​

 

[gadar perets]

Similarily (like Visionary) . . .

There you go again capitalizing when it is not called for. Its "visionary", not "Visionary".

And when Vis replies to another Messianic member by saying, "Ahhh that is why you are having difficulty with Yeshua as "God in the flesh" it represents the view of some Messianics that don't believe that Yeshua HaMashiach is God although scripture tells us He represents "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9).

Isn't Col 2:9 telling us the fullness of "the Divinity" (YHWH - God) was dwelling in Yeshua; that God was IN Messiah?

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Messiah, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.​

Also one can appreciate why some translations use all capitals (I AM) when quoting Yeshua and why capitalizing "His" "He" or "Him" is both honoring to the Father and Yeshua ... "I and the Father are one" ~ John 10:30

They don't use "I AM" out of honor, but to try and connect it to Exodus 3:14.

 

[AbbaLove]

There you go again capitalizing when it is not called for. Its "visionary", not "Visionary".

Being that He abides with her humble spirit i took the liberty in Yeshua to write Visionary with a capital "V" for "Victory In Yeshua" (like the V in YHVH). In modern Hebrew "Vav" is pronounced as a "V" sound. The word Vav used in Exodus 27:9-10 refers to the hooks fastened to the upright posts that held the curtain in place that enclosed the Tabernacle (Mishkan). In simillar fashion Visionary helps hold to the WORD fastened to the upright posts (Jewish writers) of the complete Jewish Bible.

You're probably more versed in what is referred to as the "broken Vav" and how it was restored through Mashiach Yeshua. The only two places where we see the restored "Vav" spelling is in Genesis 2:4 and Ruth 4:18. So, because Visionary is akin to Ruth it just seemed appropriate for me to capitalize Visionary (Vav). So, don't be too hasty to reprimand me for taking the liberty to represent His indwelling presence in one of our precious Messianic members.

Also one can appreciate why some translations use all capitals (I AM) when quoting Yeshua and why capitalizing "His" "He" or "Him" is both honoring to the Father and Yeshua ... "I and the Father are one"~ John 10:30

Translators do rightly honor the Godhead by using "He" "His" and "Him" in place of "he" "his" and "him" and one can also appreciate when Yeshua HaMashiach honors the Godhead ("I AM") being that He is an integral manifestation of the plurality of "I AM THAT I AM"

Exodus 3:14 (KJV) ~ And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exodus 3:14 (NKJV) ~ And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'"

How can one begin to know HaShem until they first know Yeshua​

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. ~ Proverbs 3:5-6

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” ~ John 20:28​

 

[gadar perets]

Being that He abides with her humble spirit i took the liberty in Yeshua to write Visionary with a capital "V" for "Victory In Yeshua" (like the V in YHVH). In modern Hebrew "Vav" is pronounced as a "V" sound. The word Vav used in Exodus 27:9-10 refers to the hooks fastened to the upright posts that held the curtain in place that enclosed the Tabernacle (Mishkan). In simillar fashion Visionary helps hold to the WORD fastened to the upright posts (Jewish writers) of the complete Jewish Bible.

You're probably more versed in what is referred to as the "broken Vav" and how it was restored through Mashiach Yeshua. The only two places where we see the restored "Vav" spelling is in Genesis 2:4 and Ruth 4:18. So, because Visionary is akin to Ruth it just seemed appropriate for me to capitalize Visionary (Vav). So, don't be too hasty to reprimand me for taking the liberty to represent His indwelling presence in one of our precious Messianic members.

Wow! You thought of all that before you used a capital "V"? Lighten up AbbaLove. Did you not see my smiley wink? I was just kidding.

​

 

[daq]

Isaiah 53:11 (NKJV)
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

Genesis 1:3 ~ Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
John 1:1 ~ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 ~ And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Like Thomas it is not dishonoring to God for a Messianic Jew to acknowledge Yeshua HaMashiach as "My Lord and my God" when it is scriptural. Similarily (like Visionary) it is not uncommon for Messianics to also agree when she says, "Yeshua was assigned to earth and its redemption. All matters were in His hands since the foundation of the world. Any mention of God is a mention of Yeshua." And when Vis replies to another Messianic member by saying, "Ahhh that is why you are having difficulty with Yeshua as "God in the flesh" it represents the view of some Messianics that don't believe that Yeshua HaMashiach is God although scripture tells us He represents "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9).

Also one can appreciate why some translations use all capitals (I AM) when quoting Yeshua and why capitalizing "His" "He" or "Him" is both honoring to the Father and Yeshua ... "I and the Father are one" ~ John 10:30

John 8:57-58 ~ “Why, you’re not yet fifty years old,” the Judeans replied, “and you have seen Avraham?” Yeshua said to them, “Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!” ("I AM that I AM" implying plurality of the Godhead)

Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God!” Yeshua said to him, “Have you trusted because you have seen me? How blessed are those who do not see, but trust anyway!”

Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"


Yes! It's a perplexing title that only contributes to the divisiveness.
​

Every one of your arguments has a counter argument which is a better argument if one is honest with the texts, (for example look up Exodus 3:14 in the LXX and see what it says because that is likely what the Apostolic writers were reading from). However, if not, then of course your paradigm will always be the better in your own mind. But that does not mean it has anything to do with reality: it is simply your world. As for divisiveness, (though I understand you made that comment to Vis), it is primarily caused by those who desire to force a feigned surface unity by insisting that others agree with them, and if not, then of course they must not be "true Messianics", (lol). What we are actually dealing with here, and most everywhere, is a circumstance concerning different and varying definitions for the same words. For instance you probably see "God" as almost always meaning "God Almighty", (even if it is only a subconscious reality which you are not fully aware of), while some understand how that simply is not the case in the way such words are actually used in the Word which you claim to worship. If indeed you worship the Word should you not at least know it/him?
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[gadar perets]

Translators do rightly honor the Godhead by using "He" "His" and "Him" in place of "he" "his" and "him" and one can also appreciate when Yeshua HaMashiach honors the Godhead ("I AM") being that He is an integral manifestation of the plurality of "I AM THAT I AM"

It is only modern translators that have done this. You don't see that in our first English Bibles like Wycliffe's, Tyndale's and the KJV. Does that mean they showed less respect/honor towards either the Father or the Son and did not "rightly honor the Godhead"? Of course not. It was simply a convention of language, not a matter of honor.

As for my own personal practice, since Yeshua said several times that his Father was greater than himself and since he called his Father his "God" several times, then it seems to me that his Father deserves the greater honor.

 

[AbbaLove]

Wow! You thought of all that before you used a capital "V"? Lighten up AbbaLove. Did you not see my smiley wink? I was just kidding.

YEP! ~ Yeshua Elohim Plurality! ~ "I AM THAT I AM" or "I AM THAT I AM"
"Lighten Up" implies that you too, like Thomas, will come to the realization that Mashiach Yeshua is your Lord and God.

Do you actually think that YHVH was jealous with Thomas' outcry of "My Lord and my *God!" But guess who was jealous?
Hint: "I saw _____ fall like lightning from heaven" (not capitalized). he would've preferred *god(elohim) not capitalized.

Don't you realize how unbecoming it is to imply that what Thomas meant is more correctly represented as ... "My Lord and my god (elohim)." That kind of thinking is how orthodox Judaism views their coming Messiah as a man conceived by a man and woman; with the result being to not only reject Mashiach Yeshua, but also unknowlingly rejecting the Godhead.

“Yerushalayim! Yerushalayim! You kill the prophets! You stone those who are sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children, just as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you refused!" ~ Luke 13:34

Lighten UP! ... don't lighten down Yeshua to the status of an "elohim"​

 

[gadar perets]

Don't you realize how unbecoming it is to imply that what Thomas meant is more correctly represented as ... "My Lord and my god (elohim)." That kind of thinking is how orthodox Judaism views their coming Messiah as a man conceived by a man and woman; with the result being to not only reject Mashiach Yeshua, but also unknowlingly rejecting the Godhead.

I never said or implied that Yeshua was a man conceived by a man and a woman, so don't try and equate me with unbelieving Jews. You have no Scriptural backing for your argument concerning "elohim", just emotionalism and English translations.

Lighten UP! ... don't lighten down Yeshua to the status of an

"elohim"

​

So if Yeshua is an "Elohim" and his Father is his "Elohim", then you have two "Elohim". How does that harmonize with John 17:3; Mark 12:32; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Timothy 2:5 and a host of others?

 

[AbbaLove]

I never said or implied that Yeshua was a man conceived by a man and a woman, so don't try and equate me with unbelieving Jews.

Again, you purposely misinterpret my post. If you will reread you will notice that orthodox Jews think of their coming Messiah more as being naturally conceived of a man and a woman than they do that their Messiah is integral to the Godhead as their "Lord and God" (Elohim~YHVH). You previously had stated that Yeshua was conceived by Ruach HaKodesh through the power of Elohim. In that respect Mashiach Yeshua is more than an "elohim" as you claim.​

Colossians 2:9 ~ For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily
​

It's good for your own spirit that you're hopefully coming around to the realization that Visionary's understanding honors the Godhead and that Thomas' outcry of "My Lord and my God!" was justified. Hopefully, the time will come when you will look to Him as both your Lord and God even though your acceptance of Him as that of "LORD" and my "God" is apparently too much adoration for you to bestow on Mashiaich Yeshua at this time ...​

I do not treat him as my "LORD" and my "GOD". It is the YHWH my Elohim who made Yeshua to me my Lord (Acts 2:36) and my elohim.

So if Yeshua is an "Elohim" and his Father is his "Elohim", then you have two "Elohim"

You're still misinterpreting scripture when trying to define the Godhead as "Elohim" (YHVH) and "elohim" (Mashiach Yeshua). That kind of thinking is counter-productive to the Deity of the Father and the Son and to the Messianic Community.
​

Torah Observant Messianic Judaism
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/​

​

Deity Of Messiah: Was Yeshua G-d?
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/deity.html
​

Certainly by now you must realize that Visionary's statement honors both the Father and the Son as did Thomas'. Also no other Messianic has directly posted a dissenting reply to her understanding that is supported by Scripture. This should be an indication that in your own spirit you realize that her understanding not only underscores the Deity of the Father and Son, but also is an understanding accepted within the Messianic Community ...​

Yeshua was assigned to earth and its redemption. All matters were in His hands since the foundation of the world. Any mention of God is a mention of Yeshua. Genesis 17:19…….The Seed of Isaac…….Romans. 9:7

You have expressed your "Non-Trinitarian Messianic" perspective, but for you to continue to force your understanding of Yeshua as "elohim" on other Messianics in this forum as if you are right and those that disagree are wrong is non-productive. Furthermore to misinterpret posts in order to further your own "N-T M" beliefs isn't helpful when Messianic Judaism believes in the Deity of the Godhead (Col 2:9) and accepts Thomas' words of "My Lord and my God" to Mashiach Yeshua.
​

 

[gadar perets]

You have expressed your "Non-Trinitarian Messianic" perspective, but for you to continue to force your understanding of Yeshua as "elohim" on other Messianics in this forum as if you are right and those that disagree are wrong is non-productive.

I not forcing my beliefs on anyone. I asked you a simple question that you could not or would not answer. I'll ask it again:

So if Yeshua is an "Elohim" and his Father is his "Elohim", then you have two "Elohim". How does that harmonize with John 17:3; Mark 12:32; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Timothy 2:5 and a host of others?
​

Had I put that in a statement form it could be construed as forcing, but I did not. I am giving you an opportunity to teach me how to understand these verses differently than what a plain reading of them would yield.

 

[AbbaLove]

OK, will try once again to satisfy you at the top of the next page ...