Approaches to Eschatology

[parousia70]

thanks for the somewhat unambiguous reply.

Well, i suppose one of us ought to be unambiguous.. I figured I'd go first

 

[parousia70]

Here's Another Chance to Shine @Dr. D Bunker

Revelation 3:1-3
3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Why do you say the Glorified Jesus, from heaven, promised His Thief's coming would befall these first-century peoples at Sardis?

Was He Lying to them?

Was He issuing empty threats He had no intention of fulfilling?

Was He simply mistaken?

Did His Thiefs Coming Befall them as He said it would?

Does Christ "come as a thief" multiple times?

Was He, by using the word "if", making His 1st-century thief's coming "conditional", meaning He would have returned back then but their Human actions prevented it from happening, and thus those few people at Sardis are solely responsible for the 2000 year delay??

*_____________________________ (if none of the above, please insert your alternative option)

 

[parousia70]

Why do I want to explain it to you?

Well, I definitely understand why you don't want to try.... Painting yourself into a corner is never fun.

You're not explaining yourself well enough for me to even consider answering the question. Now you're in Isaiah attempting to prove the Lord already returned. You need to explain how you interpret the verse first.

Well, If I interpret it in the way you have asserted that verses about God being SEEN BY EVERY EYE must be interpreted as physical and literal, then I'd have a big problem defending that, due to the lack of physical or historical evidence, wouldn't I?
That's the criteria you've thus far held me to when it comes to the interpretation of this type of language, isn't it?

If I interpret it as metaphoric, which I do, then I wouldn't.

How do you interpret Gods arm being seen by every eye of every nation in that verse?
Physical/Literal or Symbolic/Metaphor?

And How about 2 Samuel 22?

God is depicted here as being "seen" Riding Cherubs and clouds, shooting arrows, wielding His sword, Kindling Fires with His breath, Laying the entire earth's foundations Bare....Again, If I were to employ your assertion that such language must be interpreted as Physical/literal, the way you have insisted I must, I'd have great trouble defending that position wouldn't I?

What say you?
2 Samuel 22 is Physical/Literal or Symbolic/Metaphor?

Time to shine Brother!
Bring it!

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

NOT ONE LINK I EVER LOOKED AT CLAIMED THIS PARABLE WAS ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM OR THE TEMPLE. It is about the destruction of the chief priest and elders if they don't repent.

The managers of the vineyard, AKA the vinedressers, killed the messengers the landowner sent. Finally he sent his son and they killed him too thinking they could take control of the vineyard. The landowner judged and destroyed them. This reflects the chief priest and elders who plotted to kill Jesus. This likely refers to Israel because he Old Testament often used the picture of a vineyard to speak of Israel because a vineyard is associated with Israel in the OT. Maybe you agree so far.

By golly, I believe you may be on to something there......

The Harvest of Matt 13/Reve 14
Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus Sep 10, 2008.

Joel 3:13
Put ye in the sickle! for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow;
for their wickedness [is] great.

Mat 16:4
“A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet[fn] Jonah.” And He left them and departed.

Matthew 13:
30 ‘Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end<4930> of the age, and the reapers are Messengers. [Revelation 14:15]
Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us, when? shall these be, and what? the sign<4592> of Thy parousia and full end of the age<4931> of the age.

Luke 21:
27 ‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;[Roman army 70ad?]

Revelation 14:
14 And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Thy sickle! and reap!
for the time has come for Thee to reap, for the Harvest of the land is ripe<583>.”
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the land, and the land was reaped.
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.
18 Then another Messenger, the One who has power over fire, came out from the Altar; and He called with a loud voice to Him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in thy sharp sickle! and gather! the clusters from the Vine of the land, because her grapes are ripe.”
19 So the Messenger swung his sickle to the land and gathered the clusters from the Vine of the land, and threw them into the great Wine-press of the wrath of God.
20 And the Wine-press was trodden outside the City, and blood came out from the Wine-press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.



.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus warned the religious leaders that if they continued their rejection of God and His Messiah, God would pass the managing of His work on earth to others. Just like the parable.

"In Jesus’ parable, the "produce" was fine, but the delivery system was malfunctioning. The problem was not with the vineyard’s production but with the tenants themselves."
Emerson Powery

And why they were consumed in the geheena hell fire of Jerusalem in 70........
You do know what the Hebrew meaning of that word is don't you? Just ask the Jews.

Matthew 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Revelation 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews

In Revelation, both a people and a great City are shown with smoke burning:

Revelation 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......

And of course Jerusalem:

Revelation 19:3
And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".


............

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Talk about a scrambled mess. I wish you could be more clear about what you're trying to get across. You go all over the place trying to support something. Most of the verses you quoted are speaking of things future like this...
I wish had time to debunk all your Preterists links but I don't.

.......................

 

[keras]

I remain hopeful and patient, however, since I've been dealing with your kind here on CF for almost 2 decades... you all come upon the scene with puffed up Bravado, pontificate the same old, tired, futurist argle-bargle, and like the rest you'll eventually take your ball and go.. you'll be replaced by another drive by poster soon enough and I shall remain, as I have for 18 years now, a staunch defender of the faith and steadfast champion of both Scripture and History.

I'm still around, but I usually avoid reading your rude and insolent posts.
As you say yourself, you like those who correctly believe and who post that most prophecy remain unfulfilled, so as you can scoff and denigrate us.
You are the epitome of the people that 2 Peter 3:1-7 told us about.

I have yet to see you post any proof of past events that perfectly fulfilled a prophecy. We know how perfectly the prophesies about Jesus' first Advent were fulfilled; the virgin birth, the riding on a donkey, is death on a tree, etc.
Matthew 21:36-46, the Parable of the Landowner, does apply to those Jews who rejected and killed Him, but also to those who call themselves Jews today, in their continued rejection of Jesus. .... the nation the yields the proper fruit, awaits the end of the Christian era, when the new nation of Beulah will be formed. Isaiah 62:1-5

The prophesies of the Judgment of Fire, that Peter plainly says will happen and in 2 Samuel 22:8-16, for example, did not happen in David's time, those cosmic and dramatic things await literal fulfillment in the end times.

You and many choose to deny the possibility that you, personally may have to face difficult times, but if you are a faithful, born again Christian, you must face trials and testing. 1 Peter 4:1219, Revelation 14:12 +

 

[jgr]

I'm still around, but I usually avoid reading your rude and insolent posts.
As you say yourself, you like those who

correctly ​

believe and who post that most prophecy remain unfulfilled, so as you can scoff and denigrate us.
You are the epitome of the people that 2 Peter 3:1-7 told us about.

I have yet to see you post any proof of past events that perfectly fulfilled a prophecy. We know how perfectly the prophesies about Jesus' first Advent were fulfilled; the virgin birth, the riding on a donkey, is death on a tree, etc.
Matthew 21:36-46, the Parable of the Landowner, does apply to those Jews who rejected and killed Him, but also to those who call themselves Jews today, in their continued rejection of Jesus. .... the nation the yields the proper fruit, awaits the end of the Christian era, when the new nation of Beulah will be formed. Isaiah 62:1-5

The prophesies of the Judgment of Fire, that Peter plainly says will happen and in 2 Samuel 22:8-16, for example, did not happen in David's time, those cosmic and dramatic things await literal fulfillment in the end times.

You and many choose to deny the possibility that you, personally may have to face difficult times, but if you are a faithful, born again Christian, you must face trials and testing. 1 Peter 4:1219, Revelation 14:12 +

2 Samuel 22:8 begins with "Then".

In that context, "then" means "at that time", i.e. at the same time as the preceding events of verses 1-7. In the Hebrew, "then" is encapsulated together with "shook" to convey chronological continuity.

David repeats virtually all of his expressions of deliverance verbatim in Psalms 18.

Why do you futurize only verses 8-16 of 2 Samuel 22?

Why do you deny David the opportunity to express the drama of his deliverance in the idiom of his choosing?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You and many choose to deny the possibility that you, personally may have to face difficult times, but if you are a faithful, born again Christian, you must face trials and testing. 1 Peter 4:1219, Revelation 14:12 +

Good verse Keras.

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

Act 20:19
“serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews;

1Co 10:13
No trial has overtaken you except such as is common to man;
but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tried beyond what you are able,
but with the trial will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

1 Peter 4:12
Beloved, think it not strange<3579> at the firery<4451> toward trial<3986> to ye becoming....

Revelation 18:
9 ...when they look at the smoke of the firing<4451> of Her
18 and were crying, seeing the smoke of the firing<4451>of Her saying....


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[keras]

2 Samuel 22:8 begins with "Then".

In that context, "then" means "at that time", i.e. at the same time as the preceding events of verses 1-7. In the Hebrew, "then" is encapsulated together with "shook" to convey chronological continuity.

David repeats virtually all of his expressions of deliverance verbatim in Psalms 18.

Why do you futurize only verses 8-16 of 2 Samuel 22?

Why do you deny David the opportunity to express the drama of his deliverance in the idiom of his choosing?

The REB and the NIV for 2 examples; do not say Then.... in 2 Samuel 22:8
The KJV is in error - again.
David WAS a prophet, his prophesies are interspersed among his exploits and over his life.
As you say, Psalms 18:7-15 also has this prophecy; there was no earthquake, no darkness, no hail of glowing coals, and the earths foundations were not laid bare when David and Saul confronted each other.

What David prophesied here and elsewhere remains unfulfilled and it relates to many other unfulfilled prophesies, like the Sixth Seal.
To say it has been, means that you think you are the arbiter of whether the Bible has anything of use for us, now at the cusp of the end of this Church age.

 

[jgr]

The REB and the NIV for 2 examples; do not say Then.... in 2 Samuel 22:8
The KJV is in error - again.
David WAS a prophet, his prophesies are interspersed among his exploits and over his life.
As you say, Psalms 18:7-15 also has this prophecy; there was no earthquake, no darkness, no hail of glowing coals, and the earths foundations were not laid bare when David and Saul confronted each other.

What David prophesied here and elsewhere remains unfulfilled and it relates to many other unfulfilled prophesies, like the Sixth Seal.
To say it has been, means that you think you are the arbiter of whether the Bible has anything of use for us, now at the cusp of the end of this Church age.

The Hebrew contains "Then", as I mentioned previously.

You didn't answer the questions.

I'm not the arbiter of anything. But David was certainly the arbiter of the description of his own deliverance.

He declared that it occurred then.

Might as well futurize verse 17. David will be exhumed, doused, and drawn, whether he likes it or not.

 

[keras]

He declared that it occurred then.

But it didn't.
Why don't you read the troubles that David went thru, there is never a mention of such dramatic things as he prophesies.
But it does match with future events such as the Sixth Seal. THEN is when it will be literally fulfilled.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[BABerean2]

And why they were consumed in the geheena hell fire of Jerusalem in 70........
You do know what the Hebrew meaning of that word is don't you? Just ask the Jews.

Matthew 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Revelation 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews

In Revelation, both a people and a great City are shown with smoke burning:

Revelation 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......

And of course Jerusalem:

Revelation 19:3
And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".


............

.

Based on the scripture found below, there will be a future bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30, and whose timing is found in Revelation 11:18.

Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


The judgment of the living is found in Matthew 25:31-46, and occurs at the future Second Coming of Christ.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


In the verse below the Apostle Paul reveals that both occur at the Second Coming of Christ.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


This judgment did not occur during 70 AD.
Anyone who says otherwise has taken Preterism to the extreme, and must ignore the passages above to make their man-made doctrine work.


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[LittleLambofJesus]

Based on the scripture found below, there will be a future bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30, and whose timing is found in Revelation 11:18.

Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

.

I am well aware of those verses.

Did you know it is also repeated in Luke's Gospel?

Notice their are 2 different Greek words used in Matthew 12:41-42?

[I put strong's # and a link to a concordance I use in case one wants to look them up and find out where they are used in the rest of the NT]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

450. anistemi from 303 and 2476;
to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).
303. ana a primary preposition and adverb;
properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.)
2476. histemi his'-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);
to stand (transitively or intransitively),

Which generation will be seeing this?

"THIS GENERATION" in Bible

Matthew 12:41
`Men Ninevites shall be standing-up<450> in the judging<2920> with this generation and they shall be condemning it,
that they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here.

Luke 11:32
'Men of Nineveh<3536> shall be standing-up <450> in the judging<2920> with this generation, and shall be condemning<2632 it,
because they reformed<3340> at the proclamation<2782> of Jonah; and behold! greater/more<4119> of Jonah here!

The exact form of the greek word used in those verses is used in only 2 other verses,
1 of those concerning the famous "rapture" verse:

ἀναστήσονται (NKJV)
ἀναστήσονται — 4x
V-FIM-3P(4x)
Speech: Verb
Parsing: Future Indicative Middle 3rd Person Plural

Acts 20:30
“Also from among yourselves men shall be standing-up <450>,
speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
1Th 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ shall be standing-up <450> first
=============================================
Here are the 2 verses concerning the Queen and Solomon:

1453. egeiro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties);
to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying

Matthew 12:42
A Queen<938> of the south<3558> shall be being roused<1453> in the judging<2920> with this generation and shall be condemning it.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, more of Solomon here!

Luke 11:31
'A queen of the south shall be being roused<1453> in the judging with the men of this generation, and shall be condemning<1453> them, because she came from the ends of the land to hear the wisdom<4678> of Solomon; and behold! greater/more<4119> than Solomon here!

You can see where that exact form of the greek word used

ἐγερθήσεται (YLT)
G1453 ἐγείρω ἐγερθήσεται — 7x

Mat 24:7
'For nation shall rise<1453> against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,
and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places;

Luk 21:10
Then said he to them, 'Nation shall rise<1453> against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom,


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[jgr]

I don't see the word 'then' in any of my interlinear's. 'Then' is the word 'az' or 'azay' and it's NOT there in the Polyglot, so somehow it was added. This is how Young's literal translation words it,

Young's Literal Translation
And shake and tremble doth the earth, Foundations of the heavens are troubled, And are shaken, for He hath wrath!

I looked into this, "Apostolic Bible Polyglot Interlinear" bible hub uses and I don't trust it. It was published in 2003. I use Biblehub a lot, but I never use its interlinear.

Young's translates it the same as my interlinear. "and·she-is-reeling."

Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible

A considerable majority of versions (including NASB and even DARBY) translate to "then".

I would deem "and" as little different from "then" in terms of conveying chronology.