Apostolic Succession?

[Chris V++]

Thank you for providing this forum for questions.
I was wondering if Orthodox claim exclusive apostolic succession or do they also recognize Catholic apostolic succession?

If Catholic apostolic succession is also recognized would certain protestant denominations also have a valid claim thru the likes of Martin Luther, for example, since he was an ordained priest?

Was succession granted in some way thru the 'laying on of the hands' to pass on the Spirit like it mentions in Acts or is it thru being ordained and officially recognized.

'When Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money.19“Give me this power as well,” he said, “so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”' Acts 8

Can the succession be revoked in case of excommunication. e.g. When the Catholic and Orthodox excommunicated each other did they officially revoke each other's rights

Thanks in advance!

 

[TuxAme]

As a Catholic, I'd have to guess that the answer is "it depends" as for whether or not they recognize our apostolic succession. On issues like this, it might usually be left up to the particular communion to make that determination (Eastern Orthodoxy, while itself distinct, can be "broken up" further).

 

[Albion]

I think the Orthodox position with regard to Catholic Orders is that they are valid, but an Orthodox Christian here can confirm or deny that.

As for Lutherans, a priest cannot pass on Apostolic Succession, but only a bishop. The fact that some Lutheran churches claim Apostolic Succession owes to Catholic bishops who became Lutherans during the Reformation and then consecrated others or, in the American case, because The Episcopal Church consecrated bishops for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).

 

[URA]

I suppose an argument could be made for Lutheranism's apostolic succession as you mentioned, but I don't know how well it would hold up. With Protestantism being a collection of broken chunks of Christianity, I think the succession would be lost, even if Luther was a priest (although this does bring up the point on excommunication you mentioned). I don't know, it's not a case I've ever heard before, I'm just playing through some possibilities as I write.

Interesting questions on your posts; all the stuff people ask me about Catholicism, and very rarely does apostolic succession get brought up. For purposes of your post in particular, I suppose an answer from an Orthodox would be more useful.

 

[Albion]

I suppose an argument could be made for Lutheranism's apostolic succession as you mentioned, but I don't know how well it would hold up. With Protestantism being a collection of broken chunks of Christianity, I think the succession would be lost, even if Luther was a priest (although this does bring up the point on excommunication you mentioned).

Of course, who has Apostolic Succession and who does not is usually answered on the basis of which church the speaker belongs to.

But as for Luther, he was a priest, not a bishop, so he could not have continued any line of Apostolic Succession even if he had wanted to (which he did not), so he is not part of the question. It is something of a quirk of history that Lutherans of later times could make a case for some of their churches, but not all of them, having Apostolic Succession.

 

[ArmyMatt]

no, Rome doesn't have Apostolic succession because they have not maintained the Apostolic faith.

 

[Albion]

So the next question might be this--do the Orthodox churches recognize ANY other churches (even small and little known ones) as having valid Apostolic Succession?

 

[ArmyMatt]

officially, no.

 

[HTacianas]

Thank you for providing this forum for questions.
I was wondering if Orthodox claim exclusive apostolic succession or do they also recognize Catholic apostolic succession?

If Catholic apostolic succession is also recognized would certain protestant denominations also have a valid claim thru the likes of Martin Luther, for example, since he was an ordained priest?

Was succession granted in some way thru the 'laying on of the hands' to pass on the Spirit like it mentions in Acts or is it thru being ordained and officially recognized.

'When Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money.19“Give me this power as well,” he said, “so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”' Acts 8

Can the succession be revoked in case of excommunication. e.g. When the Catholic and Orthodox excommunicated each other did they officially revoke each other's rights

Thanks in advance!

The "can of worms" your questions open is such a mess you might never get a complete answer.

The Roman bishop, as well as the Eastern bishops, all have valid apostolic succession, but it's sometimes difficult to get some people to admit it. The simplest question to ask is which communion has valid sacraments, and in the end, both East and West recognize that the other's are in fact valid.

Protestantism presents more difficulty in that their view of the sacraments differs from the orthodox view, and are not valid.

Where there are valid sacraments, there is the Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The "can of worms" your questions open is such a mess you might never get a complete answer.

The Roman bishop, as well as the Eastern bishops, all have valid apostolic succession, but it's sometimes difficult to get some people to admit it. The simplest question to ask is which communion has valid sacraments, and in the end, both East and West recognize that the other's are in fact valid.

Protestantism presents more difficulty in that their view of the sacraments differs from the orthodox view, and are not valid.

Where there are valid sacraments, there is the Church.

as a priest I can say this is not true

 

[HTacianas]

as a priest I can say this is not true

By all means correct me. I will thank you for it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

By all means correct me. I will thank you for it.

we don't recognize Rome has Apostolic succession. if they did, we could commune them.

 

[Albion]

The explanation that ArmyMatt gave rings a bell, but it is my understanding that Orthodoxy does permit its people to receive the sacraments of the Catholic Church under very exceptional, emergency, conditions. Emergency or not, this would not seem possible if there is no Apostolic Succession and, therefore, no valid sacraments (which point ArmyMatt also made). So where have I gone wrong with this?

 

[ArmyMatt]

The explanation that ArmyMatt gave rings a bell, but it is my understanding that Orthodoxy does permit its people to receive the sacraments of the Catholic Church under very exceptional, emergency, conditions. Emergency or not, this would not seem possible if there is no Apostolic Succession and, therefore, no valid sacraments (which point ArmyMatt also made). So where have I gone wrong with this?

no, the Orthodox cannot receive even under extreme circumstances the sacraments from Rome.

 

[Albion]

no, the Orthodox cannot receive even under extreme circumstances the sacraments from Rome.

OK. I don't know where I picked that up.

 

[Chris V++]

Where there are valid sacraments, there is the Church.

What about the other sacraments, like matrimony for example? Would Orthodox be able to recognize a protestant or Catholic marriage as legitimate? Or baptism?

 

[peregrinus2017]

What about the other sacraments, like matrimony for example? Would Orthodox be able to recognize a protestant or Catholic marriage as legitimate? Or baptism?

This is something I have wondered about, but have not brought up with my priest yet. God willing, I will shortly be made a catechumen. I expect that when I am brought into the Church, it will be through baptism rather than chrismation, though I am good with whatever my priest and bishop decide. I wonder though, if one sacrament (baptism) is not recognized from outside of Orthodoxy, why would other sacraments (marriage)? I can see the benefit of taking part in the sacrament of marriage within the Orthodox Church, and wanting to marry my wife again could be romantic, (if she would actually choose to marry me a second time ), but are such things normally done, or is there an "abridged" version of fulfilling or completing the sacrament of marriage for those married outside the church?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What about the other sacraments, like matrimony for example? Would Orthodox be able to recognize a protestant or Catholic marriage as legitimate? Or baptism?

marriages are often blessed when one comes into the Church, and baptisms must still be received via chrismation. both cover what was lacking in the person's previous confession, as they come to be united to the Apostolic faith.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Funny, in my reading (without a full understanding, MANY things can be misunderstood) ... I actually worried that if I became Orthodox, the Church might not consider me as married. I was married in a Protestant church.

I was relieved to find out I am indeed considered married. I did not receive the grace I would have in a sacramental Orthodox marriage, but God has been extremely gracious to bestow much grace within my marriage as a result of what I've learned from the Orthodox Church anyway - God is not limited. And probably saved my marriage if I am honest. I don't think I could have possibly gone on as things were.

If he ever consents to have our marriage blessed though - that would be good.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Thank you for providing this forum for questions.
I was wondering if Orthodox claim exclusive apostolic succession or do they also recognize Catholic apostolic succession?

If Catholic apostolic succession is also recognized would certain protestant denominations also have a valid claim thru the likes of Martin Luther, for example, since he was an ordained priest?

Was succession granted in some way thru the 'laying on of the hands' to pass on the Spirit like it mentions in Acts or is it thru being ordained and officially recognized.

'When Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money.19“Give me this power as well,” he said, “so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”' Acts 8

Can the succession be revoked in case of excommunication. e.g. When the Catholic and Orthodox excommunicated each other did they officially revoke each other's rights

Thanks in advance!

The reason the answer is "no" is because Apostolic Succession requires not only the laying on of hands from one Bishop to another, it also requires that the Orthodox Faith be handed down. So even though Bishops can be shown to have received Succession from Bishops before them, at some point the Faith was changed and is no longer Orthodox.