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Wolseley

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The Bible is complete in its own. It needs nothing else.
And you believe that 2 Timothy 3:16 proves that?

2 Timothy 3:16 says that all Scripture is inspired. I'll go along with that.

It also says that Scripture is profitable for instruction. I'll go along with that, too.

But try as I might, I cannot make this verse say that "all Scripture is the only thing needed".

Granted, the next verse says that Scripture is inspired and profitable so that "the man of God may be complete", but that still doesn't say that Scripture is all that the man of God needs; it merely says that if he doesn't have Scripture, he is incomplete.

Then it says that the man of God needs Scripture to be complete and "equipped for good works", but knowing the Protestant horror of the "works" boogieman, we won't even go there. ;)
 
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thetruthseeker

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Originally posted by Wolseley
And you believe that 2 Timothy 3:16 proves that?

2 Timothy 3:16 says that all Scripture is inspired. I'll go along with that.

It also says that Scripture is profitable for instruction. I'll go along with that, too.

But try as I might, I cannot make this verse say that "all Scripture is the only thing needed".

Granted, the next verse says that Scripture is inspired and profitable so that "the man of God may be complete", but that still doesn't say that Scripture is all that the man of God needs; it merely says that if he doesn't have Scripture, he is incomplete.

Then it says that the man of God needs Scripture to be complete and "equipped for good works", but knowing the Protestant horror of the "works" boogieman, we won't even go there. ;)

Hi Wosely,

Scripture is, indeed, all that is needed.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Over and over again, the importance of knowing the word of Jesus is stressed in the Bible. The Bereans did not welcome Paul's words blindly. They searched the scriptures for themselves, daily. This is commendable according to the Bible.

Acts 17:10,11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The Bible is our only sure defense against apostacy like that of the Catholic church. The Bible warns against other gospels.

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Catholic church has a gospel, but it is a perverted gospel. It is an imposter. The Catholic church is filled with a miriad of errors--other gospels.

Here is some evidence. There are plenty more. These are the results of following man in place of God.

Regarding the Pope's "supreme authority"

Regarding idolatry, please have a look at the links below.

Regarding Mass, please have a look at the link below.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Here are a few illustrations regarding the pagan, namely ancient Babylonian origins of Catholic ceremonies, dress and art.

(All links removed by Wolseley)


Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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Trento

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thetruthseeker----------The Catholic church has a gospel, but it is a perverted gospel. It is an imposter. The Catholic church is filled with a miriad of errors--<B>other gospels. </B>

The authority of the Catholic Church, rests on the identity of Jesus Christ. If Jesus is God, then the authority of the Catholic Church cannot be denied either biblically, historically, or "ecclesiologically". On the other hand, it does not take an exceptional mind to recognize that when the divinity of Jesus is attacked, the authority of the Catholic Church "falls" as well.
The biblical case for the authority of the Church is, an extremely compelling one. However, what 'cements' the Catholic Church's claim is the unanimous testimony of the early Christians. Here are a few excerpts from their writings. Some were taught by the Apostles themselves. Let the reader judge for himself or herself.

"Through countryside and city the apostles preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier... Our Apostles know through Our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry." (Pope St. Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians 42:4-5, 44:1-3 80 A.D.)

"Be subject to the bishop and to one another, as Jesus Christ was subject to the Father, and the Apostles were subject to Christ and to the Father; so that there may be unity in both body and spirit" (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians, A.D.110, 13,1)

"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishops presiding in the place of God and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the Apostles." (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians, A.D. 110, 6,1)

"Those, indeed, who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic; he will not inherit the kingdom of God." (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, A.D. 110, 3,2)

"You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 110, 8,1)

"Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living in the manner not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in His death you might escape dying. It is necessary, therefore, - and such is your practice, that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the Apostles of Jesus Christ our hope." (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Traillians, A.D. 110, 2,1)

"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. Every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled." (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2, 155 A.D.)

"Although he Paul writes to the Corinthians and to the Thessalonians for their correction, nevertheless it is shown that there is one Church spread abroad though the whole world." (Muratorian Fragment, 155 A.D.)

<B>"Let us be careful, then, if we should be submissive to God, not to oppose the bishop." (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, A.D. 180, 5,3)</B>

"And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the Apostles, and their successors to our own times: men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about." (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, A.D. 180, 3,3,1)

"The blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, having founded and built up the Church of Rome, they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the Epistle to Timothy. To him succeeded Anencletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was chosen from the episcopate. He had seen the blessed Apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that He still heard the echoes of the preaching of the Apostles, and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the Apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded; and Alexander succeeded Evaristus. Then, sixth after the Apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telesphorus, who also was gloriously martyred. Then Hyginus; after him, Pius; and after him, Anicetus. Soter succeeded Anicetus, and now, in the twelfth place after the Apostles, the lot of the episcopate has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the Apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us." (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, A.D. 180, 3,3,3)

"It is necessary to obey those who are the presbyters in the Church, those who as we have shown, have succession from the Apostles; those who have received, with the succession of the episcopate, the sure charism of truth according to the good pleasure of the Father. But the rest, who have no part in the primitive succession and assemble wheresoever they will, must be held in suspicion." (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, A.D. 180, 4,26,2)

<B>"For all these heretics are of much later date than are the bishops to whom the Apostles handed over the Churches; and this fact I pointed out most carefully in the third book. It is of necessity, then, that these aforementioned heretics, because they are blind to the truth, walk in various devious paths; and on this account the vestiges of their doctrine are scattered about without agreement or connection. The path of these, however, who belong to the Church, goes around the whole world; for it has the firm tradition of the Apostles, enabling us to see that the faith of all is one and the same" (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, A.D. 180, 5,20,1).</B>

"After the death of the tyrant, the Apostle John came back again to Ephesus from the Island of Patmos; and, upon being invited, he went even to the neighbouring cities of the pagans, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, and there to ordain to the clerical state such as were designated by the Spirit" (St. Clement of Alexandria, Who is the rich man that is saved?, 190 A.D. 42,2).

"Moreover, if there be any heresies bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, so that they might seem to have been handed down by the Apostles because they were from the time of the Apostles, we can say to them: let them show the origins of their Churches, let them unroll the order of their bishops, running down in succession from the beginning, so that their first bishop shall have for author and predecessor some of one of the Apostles or of the apostolic men who continued steadfast with the Apostles. For this is the way in which the apostolic Churches transmit their lists: like the Church of the Smyrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the Church of the Romans where Clement was ordained by Peter. In just the same way the other Churches display those whom they have as sprouts from the apostolic seed, having been established in the episcopate by the Apostles" (Tertullian, The Demurrer Against the Heretics, A.D. 200, 32,1).

"Even here in the Church the gradations of bishops, presbyters, and deacons happen to be imitations, in my opinion, of the angelic glory and of that arrangement which, the Scriptures say, awaits those who have followed in the footsteps of the apostles and who have lived in complete righteousness according to the gospel." (St. Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 6:13:107:2, 207 A.D.)

"From what has been said, then, it seems clear to me that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one.We say, therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin, and in eminence, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone." (St. Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 7:17:107:3-5, 207 A.D.)

"Our Lord, whose commands we ought to fear and observe, says in the Gospel, by way of assigning the Episcopal dignity and settling the plan of His Church. From that time the ordination of bishops and the plan of the Church flows on through the changes of the times and successions; for the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers." (St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letter without heading, of Cyprian to the Lapsed, A.D. 250, 33,27,1).

"They alone have remained outside the Church who, were they within, would have to be ejected. There in John 6:68-69 speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest, the flock clinging to their shepherd in the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishops, and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priest of God, believing that they are secretly in communion with certain individuals. The Church, which is one and Catholic is not split or divided, but is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere to one another." (St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 66(67):8, 254 A.D.)

"The power of forgiving sins was given to the apostles and the churches which these men, sent by Christ, established and to the bishops who succeeded them by being ordained in their place." (Firmilian, Epistle to Cyprian 75:16, 255 A.D)

"And if you ever are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the house of the Lord is - for the others, sects of impious, attempt to call their dens 'houses of the Lord' - nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church, for this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the Mother of us all, which is the Spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God." (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Cathechetical Lectures 18:26, 350 A.D.)

"We believe in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church, for heretics and schismatics call their own congregations churches. But heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God, and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbour." (St. Augustine, Faith and Creed 10:21, 393 A.D.)
 
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thetruthseeker

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Originally posted by Trento
thetruthseeker----------The Catholic church has a gospel, but it is a perverted gospel. It is an imposter. The Catholic church is filled with a miriad of errors--<B>other gospels. </B>

......

"We believe in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church, for heretics and schismatics call their own congregations churches. But heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God, and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbour." (St. Augustine, Faith and Creed 10:21, 393 A.D.)

Hi Trento,

Where are the verses? Where is the evidence of your faith? Where can it be found in the Bible? How can you prove that it is not "another gospel."

What do you think of the following links?

Regarding the Pope's "supreme authority"

Regarding idolatry, please have a look at the links below.

Regarding Mass, please have a look at the link below.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Here are a few illustrations regarding the pagan, namely ancient Babylonian origins of Catholic ceremonies, dress and art.

(All links removed by Wolseley)

Thanks your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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Wolseley

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Well, truthseeker, I have had a look at your links, and it's the same tired stuff I have been seeing for decades, a cobbled-up pseudo-history that attempts to "prove" how Catholicism is pagan in much the same manner that Erich von Daniken once tried to "prove" that God is an extraterrestrial alien.

Practically everything in those links is all based on Alexander Hislops' flawed conclusions in The Two Babylons, which has been discredited as a reliable source for over a hundred years now.

You are entitled to your opinions, of course, but I will caution you as to the manner you are presenting them here. You have violated the rules of the forum by your choice of language; to-wit:
The Bible is our only sure defense against apostacy like that of the Catholic church. The Bible warns against other gospels.

The Catholic church has a gospel, but it is a perverted gospel. It is an imposter. The Catholic church is filled with a miriad of errors--other gospels.
(Bolding mine.)

This type of language (as well as the anti-Catholic links themselves) is in violation of Rule #2:

Rule No. 2 - No "Trolling"
2) You will not post any topic that puts down another Christian group or denomination. This includes links to websites in profiles and signatures.


You may think the Catholic Church is apostate, perverted, erroneous, and pagan, and you are free to do so. You simply can't say it on this forum in such a manner. Here, you must make it clear that these sort of statements are your own opinion, nothing more. You are free to agree to disagree, but you cannot make these kinds of remarks about another Christian denomination on this forum, whether it's Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, or whatever.

In future please be more discreet and please abide by the rules of the forum; we appreciate your cooperation and support.

Regards,
----Wolseley
Christian Forums Senior Administrator.
 
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thetruthseeker

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Originally posted by Wolseley
Well, truthseeker, I have had a look at your links, and it's the same tired stuff I have been seeing for decades, a cobbled-up pseudo-history that attempts to "prove" how Catholicism is pagan in much the same manner that Erich von Daniken once tried to "prove" that God is an extraterrestrial alien.

Practically everything in those links is all based on Alexander Hislops' flawed conclusions in The Two Babylons, which has been discredited as a reliable source for over a hundred years now.

You are entitled to your opinions, of course, but I will caution you as to the manner you are presenting them here. You have violated the rules of the forum by your choice of language; to-wit:

(Bolding mine.)

This type of language (as well as the anti-Catholic links themselves) is in violation of Rule #2:

Rule No. 2 - No "Trolling"
2) You will not post any topic that puts down another Christian group or denomination. This includes links to websites in profiles and signatures.


You may think the Catholic Church is apostate, perverted, erroneous, and pagan, and you are free to do so. You simply can't say it on this forum in such a manner. Here, you must make it clear that these sort of statements are your own opinion, nothing more. You are free to agree to disagree, but you cannot make these kinds of remarks about another Christian denomination on this forum, whether it's Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, or whatever.

In future please be more discreet and please abide by the rules of the forum; we appreciate your cooperation and support.

Regards,
----Wolseley
Christian Forums Senior Administrator.

Hi Wolseley,

Don't you think that others may wish to have the right to see what the old tired stuff is?

I'm sorry that you thought that the links were a put down. They were actually historical facts. Whether it is pleasant or not, the truth is the truth.

Your profile shows that you are very involved in the study of history. The links just showed presented the historical as well as Biblical evidence that the Catholic church is the "antichrist, the beast."

You can try to bunch the other denominations that you have mentioned in the category of the Catholic church, however, no other entity fits the multitude of descriptions that identifies it as the beast, Babylon and the antichrist.

I actually expected you to remove the links :)

I just hope that you feel that "the God on earth" the pope by his own statement is truly not your God and that you will turn to the one and only true God--Jesus Christ, not Mary, not statues, not the pope, not the priests, none but Jesus Christ.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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thetruthseeker

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Originally posted by thetruthseeker
Hi Wolseley,

Don't you think that others may wish to have the right to see what the old tired stuff is?

I'm sorry that you thought that the links were a put down. They were actually historical facts. Whether it is pleasant or not, the truth is the truth.

Your profile shows that you are very involved in the study of history. The links just showed presented the historical as well as Biblical evidence that the Catholic church is the "antichrist, the beast."

You can try to bunch the other denominations that you have mentioned in the category of the Catholic church, however, no other entity fits the multitude of descriptions that identifies it as the beast, Babylon and the antichrist.

I actually expected you to remove the links :)

I just hope that you feel that "the God on earth" the pope by his own statement is truly not your God and that you will turn to the one and only true God--Jesus Christ, not Mary, not statues, not the pope, not the priests, none but Jesus Christ.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
Hi Wosely,

Scripture is, indeed, all that is needed.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Over and over again, the importance of knowing the word of Jesus is stressed in the Bible. The Bereans did not welcome Paul's words blindly. They searched the scriptures for themselves, daily. This is commendable according to the Bible.

Acts 17:10,11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The Bible is our only sure defense against apostacy. The Bible warns against other gospels.

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Catholic church has a gospel, but it is a perverted gospel. It is an imposter. The Catholic church is filled with a miriad of errors--other gospels.

Here is some evidence. There are plenty more. These are the results of following man in place of God.

Regarding the Pope's "supreme authority"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility.
(Quoadea quoeconcernunt papae dignitatem, auctoritatem, seu potestatem, et infallibilitatem.)

#1. "The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God."
(#1. "Papa tantae est dignitatis et cesitudinis, ut non sit simplex homo, sed quasi Deus, et Dei vicarius.")

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
(#13. Hinc Papa triplici corona coronatur tanquam rex coeli, terre et infernoram.")

#18. "As to papal authority, the Pope is as it were God on earth, Sole sovereign of all the faithful of Christ, chief king of kings, having a plentitude of unbroken power, entrusted by the omnipotent God to govern the earthly and heavenly kingdoms."
(#18. "Deveniendo ad Papae auctoritatem, Papa est quasi Deus in terra unicaus Christifidelium princeps, regum omnium rex maximus, plenitudinem potestatis continens, cui terreni simul, ac coelestis imperii gubernacula ab omnipotenti Deo credita sunt.")

#30. "The Pope is of so great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws."
(#30. "Papa tantae est auctoritatis et potestatis, ut possit quoque leges divinas modificare, declarare, vel interpretari, ad num.")

Source: Lucius Ferraris, “Papa,” art. 2, in his Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica. (“Handy Library”), Vol. 5, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition, column 1823, Latin.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pope Leo XIII
Claims to hold the place of God on Earth.

... We [the pope] hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, ...


Source: Pope Leo XIII, Apostolic Exhortation Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae (The Reunion of Christendom), dated June 20, 1894, trans. in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII (New York: Benziger, 1903), paragraph 5, page 304.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does the pope speak?
It is Jesus Christ who speaks!

The pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who speaks. Does the pope accord a favour or pronounce an anathema? It is Jesus Christ who accords the favour or pronounces that anathema. So that when the pope speaks we have no business to examine.

Frequently quoted, this blasphemous claim is attributed to Cardinal Giuseppe Melchior Sarto, then Archbishop of Venice (1893-1903), who later became Pope Pius X (1903-1914), and was apparently first cited in the Catholique Nationale of Paris, July 13, 1895 and again later that year in England, in the Protestant Church Review of October 3, 1895. See also Volume 2 of Radio Replies by Fathers Rumble and Carty, which claims it to be a misquote, and that Cardinal Sarto actually said the following:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Pope is the ruler of the world.

Tell us we are Catholics first and Americans or Englishmen afterwards; of course we are. Tell us, in the conflict between the church and the civil government we take the side of the church; of course we do. Why, if the government of the United States were at war with the church, we would say tomorrow, to hell with the government of the United States; and if the church and all the governments of the world were at war, we would say, to hell with all the governments of the world. * * * Why is it that in this country where we have only seven per cent of the population, the Catholic church is so much feared? She is loved by all her children and feared by everybody. Why is it the Pope has such tremendous power? Why, the Pope is the ruler of the world. All the emperors, all the kings, all the princes, all the presidents of the world are as these altar boys of mine. The Pope is the ruler of the world.

Source: The Western Watchman, a paper published in St. Louis by Father D. S. Phelan, June 27th, 1912.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE DICTATES OF HILDERBRAND (POPE GREGORY VII)

1. That the Roman Church was founded by the Lord alone.
2. That the Roman Pontiff alone is justly called universal.
3. That he alone can depose bishops or restore them …
9. That all princes should kiss the feet of the pope alone…
12. That it is lawful for him to depose emperors …
18. That his sentence ought not to be reviewed by any one; and he alone can review [the decisions] of all.
19. That he ought to be judged by no one …
22. That the Roman Church never erred; nor will it, according to Scripture, ever err …
27. That he can absolve subjects from their allegiance to unrighteous [rulers].

John XXIII Pontifex Maximus
Attualità Giordani, Rome


Source: Gregory VII (1073-1085 A.D.), Dictatus Papae (“Dictates of the Pope”; sometimes called the Dictates of Hilderbrand), Latin text in Karl Hofmann, Der Dictatus Papae Gregors VII (Paderborn [Germany]: Ferdinand Schöningh, 1933), p. 11.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding idolatry--to be continued...


Regarding Mass--to be continued...


Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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kern

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:roll:

Multicolors, all-caps writing, anti-Catholic out of context quotes, thread hijacking...you're doing pretty well so far. You promised to follow up with idolatry and Mass -- you may also want to do Mary, Purgatory, the Inquisition, Confession (and the Sacraments in general), etc. Show us poor, deluded Catholics the way. :roll:

-Chris
 
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thetruthseeker

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Originally posted by kern
:roll:

Multicolors, all-caps writing, anti-Catholic out of context quotes, thread hijacking...you're doing pretty well so far. You promised to follow up with idolatry and Mass -- you may also want to do Mary, Purgatory, the Inquisition, Confession (and the Sacraments in general), etc. Show us poor, deluded Catholics the way. :roll:

-Chris

Hi Kern,

Are these quotes from your church (Catholic) not real or are they make believe?

The real question is this. Do you believe that the pope or any man for that matter has this authority--Biblically?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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isshinwhat

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The quotes may very well be real, but context is everything. For example, here are a few other quotes from "Pope Leo XIII, Apostolic Exhortation Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae (The Reunion of Christendom), dated June 20, 1894." The first is the quote you provided in part... here it is provided in context. It can clearly be seen that all Christians are said to represent God Almighty to the world as the Body of Christ, not just the Pope as your source would have us to believe. Nor is it an authoritarian representation of God, but our representation of unity in Christ, because far too often we are all that people see of God. We have lost a great witness through our division.

But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ, who when about to return to heaven, implored of God, His Father, in earnest prayer, that His disciples and followers should be of one mind and of one heart: I pray ... that they all may be one, as thou Father in Me, and I in Thee: that they also may be one in Us. And as this divine prayer and supplication does not include only the souls who then believed in Jesus Christ, but also every one of those who were henceforth to believe in Him, this prayer holds out to Us no indifferent reason for confidently expressing Our hopes, and for making all possible endeavors in order that the men of every race and clime should be called and moved to embrace the unity of divine faith.

And I thought I would throw in a few other passages from POPE LEO XIII's letter, as well.

...things have already come to such a pass that many do not even hesitate to root up the very foundation upon which alone rests all religion, and the hope of men, to wit, the divine nature of Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And again, whereas formerly they used to assert that the books of the Old and the New Testament were written under the inspiration of God, they now deny them that authority...

We are well aware of the long labors involved in the restoration of that order of things which We desire; and it may be that there are those who consider that We are far too sanguine and look for things that are rather too be wished for than expected. But We unhesitatingly place all Our hope and confidence in the Saviour of mankind, Jesus Christ, well remembering what great things have been achieved in times past by the folly of the Cross and its preaching, to the astonishment and confusion of the wisdom of the world.

Now, as all salvation comes from Jesus Christ—for there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved—Our ardent desire is that the most holy name of Jesus should rapidly pervade and fill every land.

God Bless,

Neal
 
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Theresa

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Truthseeker:
"If any man preach another gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed."

2 Thess 2:15 - "So then, our brothers, stand firm and hold on to those truths which we taught you, both in our PREACHING and in our LETTER."

-ie. Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture

Consider this: In Acts 20:35, "In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said,"It is more blessed to give than to receive."

-Keep in mind, that verse is nowhere in the Gospels. It was a saying of Jesus and it was nowhere in the Gospels because not everything Jesus said was recorded in Scripture (Jn 21:25)

Keep in mind, Jesus himself recognized that there was a Jewish authority to interpret the Scriptures (Mt 23:2-3) and yet you think Jesus would leave us a book with no way to definitively decide which interpretaion was correct? That would be like being tossed to the winds to sift through 38,000 different interpretations. The truth is the truth is the truth. If he didn't leave us an authority then we wouldn't even know which books were inspired to make up the cannon of the NT.

Consider the Priesthood. In the OT there was a High Priest, ministerial priests, and the universal priesthood. In the New Testament, Christ is the High Priest, and the people are the priesthood of believers. Where does it say that Jesus rid us of ministerial priests??



Thanx, Luv
Theresa
 
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Wolseley

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Hi Wolseley,

Don't you think that others may wish to have the right to see what the old tired stuff is?
Sure they do. Post that if they want to see it, to contact you by PM and you'll provide them with the links. :)
I'm sorry that you thought that the links were a put down. They were actually historical facts. Whether it is pleasant or not, the truth is the truth.

Your profile shows that you are very involved in the study of history. The links just showed presented the historical as well as Biblical evidence that the Catholic church is the "antichrist, the beast."
I have two degrees and a Phi Alpha Theta in history, and I can tell you that what your links presented is not history. It is a fairly common Fundamentalist alternative pseudo-history that has only been around since the 18th century. It bears no more resemblance to truth than I do to O.J. Simpson.
You can try to bunch the other denominations that you have mentioned in the category of the Catholic church, however, no other entity fits the multitude of descriptions that identifies it as the beast, Babylon and the antichrist.
Interpretation, my dear fellow, interpretation. ;)
I actually expected you to remove the links
I'm glad I didn't disappoint you. :)
I just hope that you feel that "the God on earth" the pope by his own statement is truly not your God and that you will turn to the one and only true God--Jesus Christ, not Mary, not statues, not the pope, not the priests, none but Jesus Christ.
The Holy Father is the Vicar of Christ on earth, not "God on earth"; context again. Mary, saints, statues, and priests are also not God or gods or goddesses. Catholics have only one, Triune God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Didn't you know that? ;)
Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
But TruthSeeker----if you really believe that I am a lost, deluded, paganite Mary-worshipping Papist idolater, how can I be "Your brother in Christ"? By your own description, I'm not a true Christian; I'm dam*ed and on my way to steamy regions, is that not correct?
 
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Trento

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Truthseeker----What do you think of the following links?

Regarding the Pope's "supreme authority"



&nbsp;What do you think of the writings of the Church &nbsp;Fathers on Authority. By the way they had to choose the table of contents of the Bible you have out of hundreds of writings.

The Church of God which sojourns in Rome to the Church of God which sojourns in Corinth....If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger."
Clement of Rome[regn. c A.D.91-101],1st Epistle to the Corinthians,1,59:1 (c.A.D. 96),in JUR,I:7,12

"Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate..."
Victor I [regn A.D. 189-198],in Eusebius EH,24:9,in NPNF2,I:242-243

"Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid...Stephen, who announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter"
Stephen I [regn A.D. 254-257], Firmilian to Cyprian,Epistle 74/75:17(A.D. 256).in ANF,V:394

"And why was nothing said to us concerning the Church of the Alexandrians in particular? Are you ignorant that the custom has been for word to be written first to us, and then for a just decision to be passed from this place? If then any such suspicion rested upon the Bishop there, notice thereof ought to have been sent to the Church of this place; whereas, after neglecting to inform us, and proceeding on their own authority as they pleased, now they desire to obtain our concurrence in their decisions, though we never condemned him. Not so have the constitutions of Paul, not so have the traditions of the Fathers directed; this is another form of procedure, a novel practice. I beseech you, readily bear with me: what I write is for the common good. For what we have received from the blessed Apostle Peter s, that I signify to you; and I should not have written this, as deeming that these things were manifest unto all men, had not these proceedings so disturbed us."
Julius[regn A.D. 337-352],To the Eusebians,fragment in Athanasius' Against the Arians,2:35,in NPNF2,IV:118

"Most honourable sons: Inasmuch as your love renders to the apostolic see the reverence which is its due, accept the same in no niggard measure for yourselves. For even though in the holy church in which the holy apostle sat, and taught us how it becomes us to manage the rudder which has been committed to us, we nevertheless confess ourselves to be unworthy of the honour, we yet on this very account strive by every means within our power if haply we may be able to achieve the glory of that blessedness....Why then do you again ask me for the condemnation of Timotheus? Here, by the judgment of the apostolic see, in the presence of Peter, bishop of Alexandria, he was condemned, together with his teacher, Apollinarius, who will also in the day of judgment undergo due punishment and torment. But if he succeeds in persuading some less stable men, as though having some hope, after by his confession changing the true hope which is in Christ, with him shall likewise perish whoever of set purpose withstands the order of the Church. May God keep you sound, most honoured sons."
Damasus[regn A.D. 366-384],To the Eastern Bishops,fragment in Theodoret's EH,5:10,in NPNF2,III:139
&nbsp;

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:3:2 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:1415-416
&nbsp;

"And he says to him again after the resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided."
Cyprian,The Unity of the Church,4-5 (Primacy Text,A.D. 251/256),NE,228-229

&nbsp;
 
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Trento

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Truth seeker----Regarding Mass, please have a look at the link below.


Lets see what the Church Fathers say about the Mass.

&nbsp;

The Catholic Mass as it is still Celebrated today.Justin Martyr -First Apology 156 AD CHAPTER LXV -- ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS. But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito . And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. <B>CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST. And this food is called among us Eukaristia , of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.</B> Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn. CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS. And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. My Church still partakes of the Eucharist the Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ does yours?

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[/size][/font][font=Verdana][size="]<B>RE: Even . Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (35-107 A.D.),"
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&nbsp; [/color][/size][/font][font=Verdana][size="]wrote the following letter to the Smyrneans... as he was being taken in chains to Rome to be martyred.<B> From Eucharist and prayer they hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father in His loving-kindness raised from the dead. And so, those who question the gift of God perish in their contentiousness.</B> It would be better for them to have love, so as to share in the resurrection. It is proper, therefore, to avoid associating with such people and not to speak about them either in private or in public, but to study the Prophets attentively and, especially, the Gospel, in which the Passion is revealed to us and the Resurrection shown in its fulfillment. Shun division as the beginning of evil.[/size]
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&nbsp;

&nbsp;Nothing like reading it from a first generation Christian.
 
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Trento

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truthseeker----Regarding idolatry, please have a look at the links below.

&nbsp;

Please read what is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church forbids the worship of idols or anything created. This is called the sin of idolatry. Only God is to be worshipped. The Church's clear teaching on this point found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), which is cited below. CCC # 2112
The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them" [citing Ps 115:4-5, 8; cf. Isa 44:44:9-20; Jer 10:1-16; Dan 14:1-30; Bar 6; Wis 13:1-15:19]. God, however, is the "living God" [Josh 3:10; Ps 42:3; etc.] who gives life and intervenes in history. CCC # 2113
Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "you cannot serve God and mammon" [Mt 6:24]. Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" [Rev 13-14] refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God [citing: Gal 5:20; Eph 5:5].


Many people today are under the impression that the word worship means to bow and to kneel and sing and to pray and that is the extent of the meaning of worship. They have fallen into the ancient pagan trap of believing that such simple gestures requiring little or no effort constitutes worship. Thus they accuse Catholics ,who venerate statues and images with simple gestures, of idolatry. And they think that praying to a saint is worshipping the dead. They have no idea of the true meaning of worship.
Let’s first examine these simple gestures. When a performer bows to his audience, is he worshipping them? When a dancer courtseys, does she worship her partner? When the oriental gentleman bows in greeting, does he worship his guest? Of course not, none of these things are worship. The same holds true for asking for someone to pray for you, whether they are alive or in heaven.
Now let’s examine worship. It begins: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" (Matt 22:36). Is what we call bowing and kneeling and praying such a wonderful thing as to constitute fulfillment of this commandment? Hardly! What if you were to lay down your life for your friends? Isn't that so much more than bowing and kneeling and praying? Does it mean that you love your friends more than God? Technically, yes, and we all know why too. Jesus said, "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). There, you have just placed love for your friends above love of God, because laying down your life is far greater that simple kneeling and bowing and praying. But you may protest, we are commanded to love our neighbor as well, and rightly so, for it is indeed the second command. Well, what all this means is that love is the foundation of worship. You cannot worship God without loving him and you cannot love him without loving others. I’ll go one better; in order to love God one must love others. This is worship; it is dependent on love, and love of God is dependent on love of others.
The scripture tells us (1 John 4:20) "If anyone says, 'I love God' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." So what difference does it make if we love someone who is alive as opposed to someone who is dead. If you gaze at a photograph of your loved one, alive or dead, out of love, is God offended? If you kiss the photograph, is he offended? But if you kneel before the photograph, suddenly he becomes offended? Of course not, he said so himself: (Matt 25:40) Truly I say to you, as you did to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.
So no matter how much you kneel and bow and pray, God is not going to be impressed with these simple motions, without consideration of love. He reads what is in your heart, and not the words coming off your lips. He measures your worship by how much you love him, and he gauges how much you love him by how much you love others. So God is pleased when we honor others especially his holy ones, the saints. When it comes to veneration of saints through their images just remember, "as you did to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."
The church has always taught that kneeling and bowing and other forms of reverence are merely outward signs of our interior devotion.&nbsp;


&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If i was working for the ACLU i would be trying to get rid of anything depicting faith in God. That the billions of Christians,over the past 2 millenium, that held on to their faith while being illerate is by no means a small tribute to the imagery that depicts the Gospel message.

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thetruthseeker

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Originally posted by Wolseley
Sure they do. Post that if they want to see it, to contact you by PM and you'll provide them with the links. :)

I have two degrees and a Phi Alpha Theta in history, and I can tell you that what your links presented is not history. It is a fairly common Fundamentalist alternative pseudo-history that has only been around since the 18th century. It bears no more resemblance to truth than I do to O.J. Simpson.

Interpretation, my dear fellow, interpretation. ;)

I'm glad I didn't disappoint you. :)

The Holy Father is the Vicar of Christ on earth, not "God on earth"; context again. Mary, saints, statues, and priests are also not God or gods or goddesses. Catholics have only one, Triune God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Didn't you know that? ;)

But TruthSeeker----if you really believe that I am a lost, deluded, paganite Mary-worshipping Papist idolater, how can I be "Your brother in Christ"? By your own description, I'm not a true Christian; I'm dam*ed and on my way to steamy regions, is that not correct?

Hi Wolsely,

Congratulations on your degrees.

You are my brother in Christ. I hope that you consider me to be your brother.

As long as there is life there is hope. My hope is that you will see the inconsistances between Catholocism and the word of God (the Bible).

Regarding the pope did you not see the following statements from your church? Evidently, you do not know much about your own church.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility.
(Quoadea quoeconcernunt papae dignitatem, auctoritatem, seu potestatem, et infallibilitatem.)

#1. "The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God."
(#1. "Papa tantae est dignitatis et cesitudinis, ut non sit simplex homo, sed quasi Deus, et Dei vicarius.")

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
(#13. Hinc Papa triplici corona coronatur tanquam rex coeli, terre et infernoram.")

#18. "As to papal authority, the Pope is as it were God on earth, Sole sovereign of all the faithful of Christ, chief king of kings, having a plentitude of unbroken power, entrusted by the omnipotent God to govern the earthly and heavenly kingdoms."
(#18. "Deveniendo ad Papae auctoritatem, Papa est quasi Deus in terra unicaus Christifidelium princeps, regum omnium rex maximus, plenitudinem potestatis continens, cui terreni simul, ac coelestis imperii gubernacula ab omnipotenti Deo credita sunt.")

#30. "The Pope is of so great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws."
(#30. "Papa tantae est auctoritatis et potestatis, ut possit quoque leges divinas modificare, declarare, vel interpretari, ad num.")

Source: Lucius Ferraris, “Papa,” art. 2, in his Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica. (“Handy Library”), Vol. 5, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition, column 1823, Latin.


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Pope Leo XIII
Claims to hold the place of God on Earth.

... We [the pope] hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, ...


Source: Pope Leo XIII, Apostolic Exhortation Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae (The Reunion of Christendom), dated June 20, 1894, trans. in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII (New York: Benziger, 1903), paragraph 5, page 304.

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[COLOR=dark-blue]
Does the pope speak?
It is Jesus Christ who speaks!

The pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who speaks. Does the pope accord a favour or pronounce an anathema? It is Jesus Christ who accords the favour or pronounces that anathema. So that when the pope speaks we have no business to examine.

Frequently quoted, this blasphemous claim is attributed to Cardinal Giuseppe Melchior Sarto, then Archbishop of Venice (1893-1903), who later became Pope Pius X (1903-1914), and was apparently first cited in the Catholique Nationale of Paris, July 13, 1895 and again later that year in England, in the Protestant Church Review of October 3, 1895. See also Volume 2 of Radio Replies by Fathers Rumble and Carty, which claims it to be a misquote, and that Cardinal Sarto actually said the following:
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The Pope is the ruler of the world.

Tell us we are Catholics first and Americans or Englishmen afterwards; of course we are. Tell us, in the conflict between the church and the civil government we take the side of the church; of course we do. Why, if the government of the United States were at war with the church, we would say tomorrow, to hell with the government of the United States; and if the church and all the governments of the world were at war, we would say, to hell with all the governments of the world. * * * Why is it that in this country where we have only seven per cent of the population, the Catholic church is so much feared? She is loved by all her children and feared by everybody. Why is it the Pope has such tremendous power? Why, the Pope is the ruler of the world. All the emperors, all the kings, all the princes, all the presidents of the world are as these altar boys of mine. The Pope is the ruler of the world.

Source: The Western Watchman, a paper published in St. Louis by Father D. S. Phelan, June 27th, 1912.

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THE DICTATES OF HILDERBRAND (POPE GREGORY VII)

1. That the Roman Church was founded by the Lord alone.
2. That the Roman Pontiff alone is justly called universal.
3. That he alone can depose bishops or restore them …
9. That all princes should kiss the feet of the pope alone…
12. That it is lawful for him to depose emperors …
18. That his sentence ought not to be reviewed by any one; and he alone can review [the decisions] of all.
19. That he ought to be judged by no one …
22. That the Roman Church never erred; nor will it, according to Scripture, ever err …
27. That he can absolve subjects from their allegiance to unrighteous [rulers].

John XXIII Pontifex Maximus
Attualità Giordani, Rome


Source: Gregory VII (1073-1085 A.D.), Dictatus Papae (“Dictates of the Pope”; sometimes called the Dictates of Hilderbrand), Latin text in Karl Hofmann, Der Dictatus Papae Gregors VII (Paderborn [Germany]: Ferdinand Schöningh, 1933), p. 11.

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Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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isshinwhat

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Pope Leo XIII
Claims to hold the place of God on Earth.

... We [the pope] hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, ...


Source: Pope Leo XIII, Apostolic Exhortation Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae (The Reunion of Christendom), dated June 20, 1894, trans. in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII (New York: Benziger, 1903), paragraph 5, page 304.

I explained that passage here earlier.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=484458#post484458

The rest, I am afraid, are like that passage: taken out of context. The Pope is not claiming to be God. You do yourself a great injustice by not reading these documents in their entirety and in the spirit they were written. Please read my previous post, very well the entire document Apostolic Exhortation Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae (The Reunion of Christendom) as it is a treatise on the very topic you just mentioned: Christian unity. To quote it again, "Our heart appeals to you even more than Our words: to you, Our Brethren [Protestants], who for three centuries and more differ from Us on Christian faith; and to you all likewise, who in later times, for any reason whatsoever, have turned away from Us: Let us all meet in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

God Bless,

Neal
 
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Wolseley

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And you still can't take the above by itself, divorced from all other teachings regarading the office of the Supreme Pontiff.

Quote me some ecumenical councils, not doctrinal treatises from theologians and ancient newspaper articles.

And I think I know more about my Church than you do, Sir. I, at least, can differentiate between doctrine, dogma, and deposit.

Benedicat vos omnipotens Deus,
---Wols.
 
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Originally posted by thetruthseeker
Hi Wolsely,

Congratulations on your degrees.

You are my brother in Christ. I hope that you consider me to be your brother.

As long as there is life there is hope. My hope is that you will see the inconsistances between Catholocism and the word of God (the Bible).

Regarding the pope did you not see the following statements from your church? Evidently, you do not know much about your own church.

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Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility.
(Quoadea quoeconcernunt papae dignitatem, auctoritatem, seu potestatem, et infallibilitatem.)

#1. "The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God."
(#1. "Papa tantae est dignitatis et cesitudinis, ut non sit simplex homo, sed quasi Deus, et Dei vicarius.")

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
(#13. Hinc Papa triplici corona coronatur tanquam rex coeli, terre et infernoram.")

#18. "As to papal authority, the Pope is as it were God on earth, Sole sovereign of all the faithful of Christ, chief king of kings, having a plentitude of unbroken power, entrusted by the omnipotent God to govern the earthly and heavenly kingdoms."
(#18. "Deveniendo ad Papae auctoritatem, Papa est quasi Deus in terra unicaus Christifidelium princeps, regum omnium rex maximus, plenitudinem potestatis continens, cui terreni simul, ac coelestis imperii gubernacula ab omnipotenti Deo credita sunt.")

#30. "The Pope is of so great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws."
(#30. "Papa tantae est auctoritatis et potestatis, ut possit quoque leges divinas modificare, declarare, vel interpretari, ad num.")

Source: Lucius Ferraris, Papa, art. 2, in his Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica. (Handy Library), Vol. 5, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition, column 1823, Latin.


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Pope Leo XIII
Claims to hold the place of God on Earth.

... We [the pope] hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, ...


Source: Pope Leo XIII, Apostolic Exhortation Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae (The Reunion of Christendom), dated June 20, 1894, trans. in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII (New York: Benziger, 1903), paragraph 5, page 304.

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Does the pope speak?
It is Jesus Christ who speaks!

The pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who speaks. Does the pope accord a favour or pronounce an anathema? It is Jesus Christ who accords the favour or pronounces that anathema. So that when the pope speaks we have no business to examine.

Frequently quoted, this blasphemous claim is attributed to Cardinal Giuseppe Melchior Sarto, then Archbishop of Venice (1893-1903), who later became Pope Pius X (1903-1914), and was apparently first cited in the Catholique Nationale of Paris, July 13, 1895 and again later that year in England, in the Protestant Church Review of October 3, 1895. See also Volume 2 of Radio Replies by Fathers Rumble and Carty, which claims it to be a misquote, and that Cardinal Sarto actually said the following:

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The Pope is the ruler of the world.

Tell us we are Catholics first and Americans or Englishmen afterwards; of course we are. Tell us, in the conflict between the church and the civil government we take the side of the church; of course we do. Why, if the government of the United States were at war with the church, we would say tomorrow, to hell with the government of the United States; and if the church and all the governments of the world were at war, we would say, to hell with all the governments of the world. * * * Why is it that in this country where we have only seven per cent of the population, the Catholic church is so much feared? She is loved by all her children and feared by everybody. Why is it the Pope has such tremendous power? Why, the Pope is the ruler of the world. All the emperors, all the kings, all the princes, all the presidents of the world are as these altar boys of mine. The Pope is the ruler of the world.

Source: The Western Watchman, a paper published in St. Louis by Father D. S. Phelan, June 27th, 1912.

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THE DICTATES OF HILDERBRAND (POPE GREGORY VII)

1. That the Roman Church was founded by the Lord alone.
2. That the Roman Pontiff alone is justly called universal.
3. That he alone can depose bishops or restore them
9. That all princes should kiss the feet of the pope alone
12. That it is lawful for him to depose emperors
18. That his sentence ought not to be reviewed by any one; and he alone can review [the decisions] of all.
19. That he ought to be judged by no one
22. That the Roman Church never erred; nor will it, according to Scripture, ever err
27. That he can absolve subjects from their allegiance to unrighteous [rulers].

John XXIII Pontifex Maximus
Attualit�Giordani, Rome


Source: Gregory VII (1073-1085 A.D.), Dictatus Papae (Dictates of the Pope; sometimes called the Dictates of Hilderbrand), Latin text in Karl Hofmann, Der Dictatus Papae Gregors VII (Paderborn [Germany]: Ferdinand Schningh, 1933), p. 11.

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Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

Interesting reading.
 
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