Anyone up for a chat thread?

[Julian of Norwich]

Well, I understand that the Jewish culture was amazingly patriarchal, however the gentile world wasn't, so did you then (while discerning) or have you since seen any writings of the ECFs that speak to genders of priests/bishops? I'm wondering, definitely not critical. I know, from your posts here that you are very sincere and respect you for that (among other things).

 

[Paidiske]

Well, I understand that the Jewish culture was amazingly patriarchal, however the gentile world wasn't, so did you then (while discerning) or have you since seen any writings of the ECFs that speak to genders of priests/bishops?

I would say that the gentile world was also patriarchal, just in slightly different ways.

A big part of the difficulty with this is that in the very early church (say, pre-200), these roles weren't as settled as they became later, and there seems to have been much more flexibility about how each church structured its leadership and ministry. (For example, you can see quite contradictory ideas in the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas, although they date to about the same era). So the idea of a three-fold order of ministry which was clearly delineated, which were the only roles understood as "ordained" over against other roles which were "lay," and which had very well-defined liturgical and ministry roles, comes from much later; and in that early period the evidence for women's involvement in different roles is there, but patchy (as is our evidence for most things in that era!) Some of the evidence comes not just from writings but also from things like paintings and mosaics and inscriptions, where we see what look like women presiding at communion, or women referred to with priestly/episcopal titles, that sort of thing.

That said, there's a helpful book called "When women were priests" which sets out some of the evidence for women occupying those roles in the very early church. I'd suggest that might be a good start to explore some of that evidence further?

 

[Julian of Norwich]

I'll look for that book and what you say is very interesting.

 

[The Liturgist]

Thank you for being open and willing to listen.

I think, though, that if I'm going to talk about my very personal journey, I'd rather do it in a forum where that can't be directly discredited or attacked, so I'll start a thread in the Egalitarian forum rather than in STR. And maybe ask other ordained women to share their journeys too?

(Not that I think you would be discrediting or attacking, but that it's tiresomely regular for people to accuse ordained women of being deluded, rebellious, etc etc, and if I'm sharing my heart I'd just rather not have any of that, if you know what I mean!)

Also, I'm about to have a long and very busy day, and that's not a five-second post, so it might be quite late today or tomorrow before I get to it!

I am so sorry people say things like that to you and your colleagues.

 

[Mountainmike]

Well, I understand that the Jewish culture was amazingly patriarchal, however the gentile world wasn't, so did you then (while discerning) or have you since seen any writings of the ECFs that speak to genders of priests/bishops? I'm wondering, definitely not critical. I know, from your posts here that you are very sincere and respect you for that (among other things).

One interesting aspect: the title queen in the OT was given to mother not spouse of the king, with role of intercession. Solomon bowing, giving her a throne, saying “ I will do whatever you ask”. Various queens are named.

Later John the Baptist’s head was delivered at the behest of a woman.

As for priesthood We also see female deacons tortured in the letters of pliny to Trajan.

So women are there with some level of power.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I have been a very poor participant here over the pandemic.

Our church, I think, has adapted well. We have grown in some areas, and obviously shrunk in others. Our main service is broadcast on our YouTube channel and that is here to stay. We have been allowed to worship in our building for the last six weeks, but we are not allowed to sing and have strict social distancing, which means a limit of about 30 people. We decided that the lack of singing was a no-no, so we are continuing to live stream our main service and having two said services. One of our music groups gets us to record our own singing at home, and puts it together to get some idea of congregational singing.

Personally, I have quite enjoyed the lock-down. I am a teacher, and found the online live lessons fairly straightforward, and a blessing not to have to commute. I've enjoyed having most of my DCs at home, and also engaging with more far-flung relatives on a weekly Zoom call. We have had a relaxation of lockdown rules over the last 6 weeks, so I find that I can live my life fairly normally, other than having to wear a face-covering in public (my DD and I had a production line and we made about 80!).

The uncomfortable thing is getting back to school. Scottish schools have gone back this week, so we are eagle-eyed about how we can learn ahead of English schools going back at the beginning of September. I don't think there will be anything normal for a long time. I have two DDs at university and it is not really clear about how they will engage with lectures and tutorials.

 

[Shane R]

My oldest daughter is set to begin school in the fall. I took her up to the assigned school and registered her. Three days later they announced all instruction for the fall would be virtual. They are expecting 5 year olds to tune into a 90 minute Zoom meeting Monday thru Thursday. The school system has bought tablets for every student, which apparently left them short of funds to buy things like cleaning supplies, since the school supply list they sent me asks me to buy a bunch of cleaning supplies. They had a big online meeting last week to lay out the plan for the beginning of the year. They announced they will be implementing their Phase I plan. (Here in the US most of the States have adopted various plans that have phases of reopening.) I and several other of the parents noted that the Commonwealth of Virginia is mostly in Phase III, and those counties which are not are in Phase II. 'School' begins September 8th. If they wanted me to homeschool the girl, I wish they would have been honest about it.

 

[Paidiske]

Are they planning to do virtual learning at the school, Shane? Here that's only an option for children of essential workers, and from everything I've heard, it doesn't work well for little ones...

 

[Shane R]

The teachers will be at the school doing their Zoom stuff. My daughter will be at home tuning in on her school supplied tablet.

 

[Paidiske]

Ah yes. That's the kind of model we're doing here. It's not quite homeschooling in that we don't need to construct the curriculum, but it is in the sense that we need to supervise and support everything.

 

[Julian of Norwich]

Ah yes. That's the kind of model we're doing here. It's not quite homeschooling in that we don't need to construct the curriculum, but it is in the sense that we need to supervise and support everything.

And organize and motivate the kids. My older two grandchildren are teens and both did horribly online last spring. Part of the problem, I suspect, is that the teachers at their school only had a week of training in developing the online curriculum and it was boring according to both kids. My granddaughter tho' refuses to go to school part-time (as the new plan is) and wear a mask all day long, so she wants to do her learning this fall at home along with her older brother. They will be doing a program developed by an actual online schooling system, so will probably do much better, but I'm glad the two little ones aren't old enough to be in school yet!

 

[Paidiske]

Oh yes, the motivation is the biggest issue here, actually. That's kind of what I meant about "support."

 

[seeking.IAM]

That's kind of what I meant about "support."

At a church Finance Committee ZOOM tonight, some folks talked about the news article of my looming retirement.
I voiced ambivalence about what exactly I might be getting myself into. My ever helpful priest said it could be like Jesus said to Peter,

“Very truly, I tell you, when you were younger, you used to fasten your own belt and to go wherever you wished. But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will fasten a belt around you and take you where you do not wish to go.”
​

I think they teach this kind of sensitive emotional support in Episcopal seminaries now.

 

[Shane R]

At the fall clergy retreat, where we ordained 2 priests - hence the red paraments.

 

[Paidiske]

Those girls of yours are growing fast, Shane! How is the school situation going?

My daughter started at a new school yesterday; she's exhausted, but I was really pleased to hear her new teacher remark on her kindness.

 

[Shane R]

The virtual school is not good. The school system is looking to a return to in person instruction in November.

At one point the teacher tried to tell me my internet connection was bad. I have two channels on my router and my daughter is on the fast channel. I told her that I am able to have 1 1/2 hour conversations with folks in S. America and SE Asia on the slower channel without the problems the school has on Zoom. They later discovered the devices they issued the children did not have up to date audio support.

 

[Paidiske]

That'd be right. We did find the school's offering improved over the months we were in shut down (two terms), but if you can get back to the classroom sooner, so much the better!

 

[Shane R]

Little Lola's birthday is the 15th. She will be 3. The weekend she was born, I was at a clergy retreat in West Virginia. Much of West Virginia is quite rural and one's cell phone might not work much of the time. I was some 45 miles from the location of the retreat before I got cell service back. I had a voice mail from my wife telling me her contractions were so many minutes apart. I drove hard that day, like a long haul trucker. I made it home 2 hours before she delivered the baby.

 

[Paidiske]

I imagine it's tough to look back on some of that now. Thanks for sharing it with us, though.

Little Lola and her sister are blessed to have you as their dad.

 

[Shane R]

She delivered faster than anyone expected. I drove her up to the local Air Force hospital. They had sent me out to the waiting room to nap since I was thoroughly exhausted. I had only been napping for about half an hour when the nurse came out and told me the baby was born.

She delivered so fast they had only just run her blood work and hadn't issued any medication yet. That one was all natural.