Anyone up for a chat thread?

[LaSorcia]

It's so rare to see people kneeling today anyway. I make a point of kneeling when I'm leading services because I don't want that to be lost as a "normal" posture for prayer, but I don't think anyone in my congregation does.

You keep on setting that good example even if no one follows! Good for you!

 

[Paidiske]

CA, bowing's different. I see a lot more bowing.

Interesting, now that I think about it. I wonder why bowing would remain a lot longer than kneeling...?

 

[CanadianAnglican]

Hmm, at this parish it was the three short bows during the gloria, a long, full bow held during the creed to acknowledge Christ's lordship followed by kneeling for the incarnation and then bowing again at the end. Quite common apparently, since even the other visitors knew to do it without instruction when we were at vespers.

 

[Paidiske]

Wow. Okay, that's a lot more than I'd be used to, even from very Anglo-Catholic folk.

Australian informality, I guess...

 

[everbecoming2007]

It's so rare to see people kneeling today anyway. I make a point of kneeling when I'm leading services because I don't want that to be lost as a "normal" posture for prayer, but I don't think anyone in my congregation does.

Wow. I did not realize it was becoming uncommon. What about in the Episcopal Church overall? I'm asking this in general to anyone who may know; I know you are not in the USA.

We kneel often in our services here, but I've never been to progressive parishes in the ECUSA.

I've noticed that in some other non-Anglican liturgical churches I've been to they barely kneel at all, not even Holy Communion.

I understand why the East has a different practice, but it makes me uncomfortable to see this in Western churches.

 

[Paidiske]

Oh, no, of course you're correct. Many people kneel to receive communion. I was thinking of kneeling in the pews, say, during the intercessions. It's that, that I only see exceptionally rarely.

 

[everbecoming2007]

Oh, no, of course you're correct. Many people kneel to receive communion. I was thinking of kneeling in the pews, say, during the intercessions. It's that, that I only see exceptionally rarely.

It's funny that in our 1928 service most stand for the intercessions with only a few kneeling. But in the later Rite I service we kneel for the intercessions.

I stand for them in the 1928 because we kneel for so much of the service - most of it, really. And even afterward we kneel for the extinguishing of the candles until the priest exits and we stand. So in this case it still seems reverent and helps create a balance because it's important for me to sense a good pattern of sitting, kneeling, and standing.

We kneel for much of Rite I as well, but I follow the custom and kneel for intercessions then.

For me standing is reverent, but it is the flow of kneeling, standing, and sitting that signals to my mind and emotions that I am worshipping. That's also why I love the Office. It is wonderful to flow into that pattern everyday, so peaceful and good.

 

[Paidiske]

In the form we use most often - A Prayer Book for Australia, 1995, "Second Order" of Holy Communion - the rubrics instruct the congregation to stand at various points, but make no mention of kneeling at all. There is a note saying that "local custom may be followed" with regard to posture. That probably saved a lot of arguments, but also hastened the absence of kneeling...

 

[everbecoming2007]

In the form we use most often - A Prayer Book for Australia, 1995, "Second Order" of Holy Communion - the rubrics instruct the congregation to stand at various points, but make no mention of kneeling at all. There is a note saying that "local custom may be followed" with regard to posture. That probably saved a lot of arguments, but also hastened the absence of kneeling...

The 20th canon of the Council of Nicea states that since some persons kneel on Sunday and the days of Pentecost it seems best to the council that prayers should be offered standing to preserve uniformity. It may also have been considered appropriate to stand on the joyous day of the Resurrection. This fact of history is often used by those who disfavor kneeling (probably on any day of the week), and they advocate that they are merely restoring primitive practices with the a priori assumption that primitive customs are always better or more pure than later ones or that customs in a given culture with its own social and historical circumstances always have the same meaning in another time and culture. Oftentimes when I have heard objections to kneeling, never anyone from my parish mind you, the idea is that kneeling is debasing, not worthy of a self-respecting dignified person. This line of reasoning then has nothing truly to do with the Nicene canon or the proper postures for celebrating the Resurrection: in such a case refusing to kneel has a totally different meaning in our culture than it did in the primitive church, and that is the problem with citing early practice as if that proves what we should now be doing.

The wording of the canon is not actually as strong as it could be, and it is disciplinary, not doctrinal. Numerous early canons are obsolete or otherwise unobserved or given lenient applications even in churches that still hold them in high regard in disciplinary matters such as the Orthodox. And concerning the 20th canon it is significant to note that even in the ancient liturgy of the Holy Qurbana of St. James the priest prostrates or kneels for a part of the liturgy, and this despite the general Eastern practice of forbidding kneeling on Sundays as Nicea recommended.

The fact is that in the Western mind kneeling is naturally associated with reverence. Standing is, too: we stand for the Gospel. But kneeling signals and incites reverence and we associate it with such important acts as communing. Whatever arguments are made for primitive practice, when kneeling is forbidden or discouraged for communion for example, people in general receive the message that it must not be so serious after all.

I have not seen these problems in the Episcopal Church but gather from statements here and elsewhere that in some dioceses there is little traditional liturgy. I have seen it in other theological traditions however. For example in local Catholic parishes those very few who kneel for the Sacrament must kneel on the floor as there are no rails, and it can upset clergy and laity alike. However after numerous complaints to Rome from persons allegedly scolded, reprimanded, denied communion, or even assaulted a clarification was made by the Pope that it is the right of Catholics to kneel. This clarification is still being made known to the public. In my brief time in the Catholic Church it was announced that one should preferably bow before communing ,and sure enough almost everyone began to do so. There are reports that the laity are remarking how much more this impresses on them the significance of receiving Communion. I have also heard that over half or more of a parish will kneel for Communion even if the practice is unfamiliar or not recommended if only altar rails are reintroduced.

In summary, the piety of Western Christians nurtured by long development of liturgical practices over the centuries grants us an intuitive understanding that kneeling for certain prayers and acts signifies something important, and academic arguments cannot change that. And if we really wanted to get back to primitive customs and liturgies we would be in for some serious fasting and very different liturgical norms and rites than what we have in modern practice!

 

[Feuerbach]

I don't like chairs in a church.

I got married in a British church that had chairs instead of pews, and it just looked weird to me. That's just a cultural bias though. If I'd been raised on chairs, I'm sure it would have been fine.

One nice thing about chairs is that they're adaptable and you can move them around if need be. These had vinyl upholstery though, so I can't image that's very durable.

I agree, I much prefer pews to chairs.... maybe someday my mission congregation will be able to afford pews.

 

[Paidiske]

Do any of your churches have labyrinths? Do you find that people actually use them for prayer and meditation?

 

[LaSorcia]

Mine does. It has a large canvas medieval labyrinth. People actually frequently use it, including myself. I have some wonderfully peaceful prayer times there.

 

[graceandpeace]

The custom at the service I attend is to stand to sing/sit to listen/stand for Gospel-Creed-prayer/kneel at rail for communion.

Occasionally a priest (we have more than one) will come forward with the elements & there is no opportunity to kneel. I intensely dislike it, but it has only happened on occasion. Typically we kneel.

 

[graceandpeace]

My church does have a labyrinth, but I've never made use of it. I hope to one day.

 

[CanadianAnglican]

We do not have a labyrinth, however I know there are a few within my diocese (very small number, maybe 3 I can think of off the top of my head and probably one or two more I don't know of) but the only time I've ever been aware of someone using it properly was when we hosted our parish retreat at the local Roman Catholic Convent, and the sisters there had a labyrinth along with a book in their library on how to pray a labyrinth. Our nerdy assistant priest read the book during the first break and prayed the labyrinth during the second. He said it was nice.

I've only ever visited one Anglican parish that had one, and I couldn't find readily available material on how to use it, though I didn't go so far as to ask their pastor.

 

[Feuerbach]

We do not have a labyrinth. I don't think I've been to a parish that had one. I only have seen them at retreat centers and the like.

 

[Shane R]

I had to do a bit of research on that; I had not so much as heard of a prayer labyrinth. Obviously, I have never seen one in person.

Devotionally, I would say I am most amenable to the Stations of the Cross.

 

[Paidiske]

We have a big grassy area behind the church that I keep looking at and thinking, "Wouldn't it be better if we used it for prayer, rather than not using it at all?" Hence wondering about the labyrinth.

Happy Trinity Sunday, folks!

 

[everbecoming2007]

The custom at the service I attend is to stand to sing/sit to listen/stand for Gospel-Creed-prayer/kneel at rail for communion.

Occasionally a priest (we have more than one) will come forward with the elements & there is no opportunity to kneel. I intensely dislike it, but it has only happened on occasion. Typically we kneel.

Do you mean the priest comes forward before you have opportunity to kneel? I'd just kneel before receiving from that priest.

If the Eucharist is celebrated in an unusual space for a special occasion and there is little space to kneel or otherwise makes distribution awkward (particularly for the Chalice) then I simply bow or genuflect before receiving each element.

 

[everbecoming2007]

We do not have a labyrinth, however I know there are a few within my diocese (very small number, maybe 3 I can think of off the top of my head and probably one or two more I don't know of) but the only time I've ever been aware of someone using it properly was when we hosted our parish retreat at the local Roman Catholic Convent, and the sisters there had a labyrinth along with a book in their library on how to pray a labyrinth. Our nerdy assistant priest read the book during the first break and prayed the labyrinth during the second. He said it was nice.

I've only ever visited one Anglican parish that had one, and I couldn't find readily available material on how to use it, though I didn't go so far as to ask their pastor.

My parish has no labyrinth, but a friend of mine in the parish had one built in her yard. Parish announcements at times have been made regarding walks that have been hosted often consisting of parish members but sometimes other visitors, too. I walk it on occasion, but it is not my favorite way to pray. I prefer to either walk alone or else attend communal walks hosted specifically with parish members involved because we stay within the Christian tradition that way.

Walks I've attended that were open to the public at the same labyrinth were New Age themed and the blatantly modern neo-pagan Wheel of the Year passed off as Celtic! I immediately began to object but was cut off before I could explain the true origins of the calendar and informed that the host(ess) already knew the source. I don't think (s)he realized that (s)he was completely wrong and that I was about to correct the misinformation: the calendar consists of ancient and modern inspirations and is a modern construct and does not come from ancient Celtic culture despite some inspirations from that source. Besides this I was offended that either Native American rituals were being practiced by non-Native Americans or else new rituals created primarily by white persons were misrepresented as Native. There was nothing therein to clash with Christianity, but it is extremely offensive to Native Americans to have what little is left of their traditions (including those not open to outsiders) stolen by descendents of their oppressors and often misrepresented or corrupted all in the name of being "spiritual."

That said I have always enjoyed the labrynth walks in the context of Christian prayer and without all of this misinformed nonsense being passed off as fact. Aaahh, I hate New Age ignorance.

Okay, rant over. I do want to ask what is the proper way to pray a labrynth? I was never introduced to a certain method. I usually quiet my heart in silence, sit or kneel in the center to say the Our Father or else offer spontaneous praisings or thanksgivings during the walk or pray the Rosary. I never heard of a proper way to do it, my only intention being to avoid anymore New Age themed walks. Those were never advertised in the parish for obvious reasons!