Anyone up for a chat thread?

[Shane R]

How do you deal with parishioners with respiratory issues?

I have found that people are much less sensitive if they are worshiping almighty God. But, we do have one lady on oxygen, and she declared after the service that she was alright. It's all about how one loads the censer and how good the air circulation is. Also, how strong or mild the incense is: we used the Jerusalem blend which is cedar spiced with myrrh.

It was a little ridiculous that the organist prepped her daughter to cough whenever I swung the censer.

 

[Paidiske]

In my last parish we had a lady living next door whose allergies to whatever was in the incense were so severe she couldn't come in to a main service. I suggested to the parish that we make an exception and not use incense when she wanted to worship with us, but they were not willing to be that flexible. That honestly made me very angry; shouldn't we value people more than our particular liturgical preferences?

 

[everbecoming2007]

In my last parish we had a lady living next door whose allergies to whatever was in the incense were so severe she couldn't come in to a main service. I suggested to the parish that we make an exception and not use incense when she wanted to worship with us, but they were not willing to be that flexible. That honestly made me very angry; shouldn't we value people more than our particular liturgical preferences?

That would upset me, too, and I do love ceremony and incense.

But in this situation I would ask: how do the Orthodox deal with these issues? And could their approaches work for us without unduly burdening parishoners with these sensitivities?

 

[Paidiske]

From what I can tell, the Orthodox approach to someone with genuine allergies or health problems aggravated by incense is, "sucks to be you." When I tried talking about this in General Theology I actually got Orthodox folks telling me that it was impossible that any aspect of the liturgy could ever harm someone, so the question didn't even need to be entertained.

 

[everbecoming2007]

From what I can tell, the Orthodox approach to someone with genuine allergies or health problems aggravated by incense is, "sucks to be you." When I tried talking about this in General Theology I actually got Orthodox folks telling me that it was impossible that any aspect of the liturgy could ever harm someone, so the question didn't even need to be entertained.

Ahh. I figured there might be an element of that. I have also heard that someone with a severe allergy to gluten or alcohol cannot be harmed by taking the Eucharist because it is now the Body and Blood, and if it does harm the communicant must have been sinning.

But I have seen that view expressed only in forums or articles, and online Orthodox groups are often dominated by ex-(?)fundamentalists. I never thought to ask the few Orthodox I know in person.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I cough sometimes when my church uses incense. I prefer to be coughing in church with incense rather than not coughing without incense.

(Oh, yes, sometime I cough without incense. I am an equal opportunity cougher.)

 

[KernelPanic]

I asked the deacon at my Orthodox church about incense allergies and his response was, "Well, we try to be sensitive to these issues." Basically, they'll cut back on it, but if you're allergic, you're out of luck. I've also had people at my parish faint at one point from standing (we don't have any pews).

I have also heard that someone with a severe allergy to gluten or alcohol cannot be harmed by taking the Eucharist because it is now the Body and Blood, and if it does harm the communicant must have been sinning.

I don't know about alcohol, but if someone has Celiac Disease, the portion is reduced to the minimum (similar to what would be given to an infant) or with the bishop's blessing, wine is set aside (although it's still wine that was mixed with bread). But yes, there are people who believe that if you're harmed by a physical reaction to the Eucharist, it's entirely your fault.

 

[Cappadocious]

online Orthodox groups are often dominated by ex-(?)fundamentalists.

yep.

From what I can tell, the Orthodox approach to someone with genuine allergies or health problems aggravated by incense is, "sucks to be you."

Often yes, the alternative is to move to ragweed-free incense. A lot of regularly-used incense is cheap and cut with smoke-producing allergenic filler.

Problem is once you're sensitized, even if a parish burns no new incense the nave may be difficult to stand.

In that case the parish would have to rally around the person to take the service to them, or communion, etc. which happens with shut-ins as well.

 

[Paidiske]

True, it's much better to use incense which is straight dried Boswellia resin, rather than anything with added spices.

Sigh. Parish planning process taking much attention here. Always fun to be in a parish which is trying to work out if/how they can afford to keep you...

 

[BelleC]

Always fun to be in a parish which is trying to work out if/how they can afford to keep you...

Oh no!! So sorry to read that! I hope all works out well.

I've been kind of in that situation for a few years now as a Sunday school coordinator. The program, as that church, has dwindling for quite some time. The very big difference though is my family is not at all dependent on that tiny, part-time income and I've been hoping to find something else for a while.

There is an opening at an Episcopal church near me for a Youth Coordinator and I'd like to sit down with the pastor there to talk. I'm trying to wrap my mind around the liberal/progressive side of the EC and see where that church is on the spectrum. I think through reading I can understand better some of the issues that previously really bothered me but I'm far from being a gung-ho liberal. That doesn't mean I feel I couldn't worship with someone who disagrees with me. I just don't want to feel ostracized if I don't agree with certain views. Right now people in the US are hugely divided and sensitive. Where I live right now there is an assumption by most people that everyone thinks one way and disagreement is tantamount to being a bad person or a naive/less intelligent one.

 

[seeking.IAM]

... I'm far from being a gung-ho liberal. That doesn't mean I feel I couldn't worship with someone who disagrees with me. I just don't want to feel ostracized if I don't agree with certain views. Right now people in the US are hugely divided and sensitive. Where I live right now there is an assumption by most people that everyone thinks one way and disagreement is tantamount to being a bad person or a naive/less intelligent one.

I hope you find that for which you are looking. It truly is possible to have a "big tent" church with room for all. I am happy to attend an Episcopal Church where religious progressives & conservatives and political left & right wingers all worship together, get along, and share the common cup. I think the real key is to remain focused on those things that we hold in common, not those things that divide us.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I will add to my earlier post that I prefer not to go to a church where everyone is just like me. There is no growth in not considering different points of view.

 

[Cappadocious]

True, it's much better to use incense which is straight dried Boswellia

Personally I think myrrh is toounderused, and might be less disruptive than frankincense for sensitive noses.

 

[Cappadocious]

Sigh. Parish planning process taking much attention here. Always fun to be in a parish which is trying to work out if/how they can afford to keep you...

Just abandon that continent, already!

 

[BelleC]

I am happy to attend an Episcopal Church where religious progressives & conservatives and political left & right wingers all worship together, get along, and share the common cup. I think the real key is to remain focused on those things that we hold in common, not those things that divide us.

I think I would enjoy being a part of that too.

I get equally uncomfortable in a church that preaches right wing politics from the pulpit as left wing. I'd rather each feel free to form their own decisions and beliefs from scripture and not assume they know what everyone else in church thinks too. Outside the Nicene Creed I have lots of things I just am not sure about but I don't want to try to figure all out alone with no community.

 

[Paidiske]

Oh no!! So sorry to read that! I hope all works out well.

Actually, I'm very much encouraged that they seem to have heard what I've told them about the need to do things differently if they're going to grow. And that's let the question shift a bit from "Can we afford to keep Paidiske?" to "Is Paidiske the right person to lead us in what we need to do next?" To which the answer is quite possibly not, but I'm comfortable with that, if it means they actually get the right person.

Just abandon that continent, already!

The thought has crossed my mind... but it does need that happy meeting of the right job and a bishop willing to appoint me to it!

 

[BelleC]

Actually, I'm very much encouraged that they seem to have heard what I've told them about the need to do things differently if they're going to grow. And that's let the question shift a bit from "Can we afford to keep Paidiske?" to "Is Paidiske the right person to lead us in what we need to do next?" To which the answer is quite possibly not, but I'm comfortable with that, if it means they actually get the right person.



The thought has crossed my mind... but it does need that happy meeting of the right job and a bishop willing to appoint me to it!

Wow, you are one strong person. I'd be huffily thinking, "What do you mean I'm not perfect for this?!?!" And having a huge inward fight for thinking this. :-/

I'll be praying for you to find the perfect spot, wherever that may be.

 

[seeking.IAM]

...I get equally uncomfortable in a church that preaches right wing politics from the pulpit as left wing. I'd rather each feel free to form their own decisions and beliefs from scripture...

I think you have hit on the key of it all. One of the things I have valued about our recent Rector is that he drove the ball right down the middle of the fairway. There was no politicizing in either direction. Alas, our Rector retired and we shall soon be calling a new one. I pray our new Rector will stick to the message of the Gospel and leave us free to sort out the details ourselves.

There was a time when I was critical of my clergy dad of not taking stronger positions on what I perceived as being the key issues of my youth. I now understand that he was staying on common ground. I believe he was right and I was wrong.

 

[BelleC]

I think you have hit on the key of it all. One of the things I have valued about our recent Rector is that he drove the ball right down the middle of the fairway. There was no politicizing in either direction. Alas, our Rector retired and we shall soon be calling a new one. I pray our new Rector will stick to the message of the Gospel and leave us free to sort out the details ourselves.

There was a time when I was critical of my clergy dad of not taking stronger positions on what I perceived as being the key issues of my youth. I now understand that he was staying on common ground. I believe he was right and I was wrong.

I am really wishing today that the church I work at (a federated church of UCC, Methodist, and American Baptist) adopted such a position. I would still be looking into Anglicanism for other reasons but it is getting horribly tense there right now. According to yesterday's sermon we are apparently the new Nazi Germany and may not be real Christians if we don't agree with pastor's views. Some parishioners were nodding their heads, others were fuming. My heart felt like it was about to pound out of my chest and I had to get up and leave.

However long I continue to work there that is the last time I will sit through a service. I teach and coordinate the Sunday school but as it is a tiny church there are not always kids there on a given Sunday. Previously, I would just stay in the service if there were no kids but from here on out I'll wait in the Sunday School room and leave if there are no kids.

Please pray for me.

 

[Paidiske]

Of course we will, Belle.

The line I take on politics in the pulpit is that it's fine to comment on policy, but not to push a party or comment on the people involved.

So I have every intention, in a couple of weeks when the gospel reading is on loving the stranger, of commenting on Australia's refugee policy and how that doesn't reflect gospel values. But I would never try to tell people how to vote.