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Anyone up for a chat thread?

Paidiske

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I don't want to come across sounding nasty about it, because I know some fine priests who were ordained in rural dioceses after major metropolitan dioceses weren't keen on them. I think those priests did the best they could with what they had.

But I've also seen some rural bishops make some very poor decisions to ordain, and it's not always a happy ending; you end up with a burnt out or damaged clergy person who really should have been told "no" up front and saved the pain.

But discernment isn't an exact science, and I don't know what the answers are.
 
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archer75

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Yes, true. I've observed that people tend to come to Melbourne and start studying, undertaking the discernment process while studying. It's a huge and costly venture if they end up being told no. Some people do kind of diocese-shop until they find a bishop willing to lay hands on them (often going to a desperate rural diocese).

I had never given this possibility (of this sort of thing happening) before in my life. Wow.

For what reasons would a sincere candidate likely be turned down? I ask this not to argue with anybody, as I know nothing about how all this works, am just wondering.
 
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Paidiske

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The most common reasons I've seen people do that sort of thing are:

- they are gay and they think the big city diocese will turn them down (or the big city diocese does turn them down)
- there is a question mark over their personality and pastoral manner. Someone who is unable to keep their own emotional baggage from affecting their care for others, that kind of thing. (These are the ones who tend to be out of the ministry a few years later).

But sincere candidates are turned down all the time. Sincerity isn't the only issue; ability to function in the role is important. And not everyone can.
 
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Deegie

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For what reasons would a sincere candidate likely be turned down? I ask this not to argue with anybody, as I know nothing about how all this works, am just wondering.

For TEC (in the United States), people seeking ordination are turned down with some regularity. Sometimes their priest just doesn't like them and refuses to even start the process. Sometimes the bishop or commission feels they lack leadership skills or maturity. Other times, they don't believe the person has a realistic understanding of ordained ministry. Sometimes, they are seen as either too conservative or too progressive for that diocese. These are all reasons I've heard about in the last few years.

It is very painful for a person to go through a parish discernment process with people who know him/her quite well and be recommended to the diocese, only to be denied by strangers who base their opinion entirely on a few hours of conversation.

All that said, I must admit that my own discernment process, although full of hoops and delays and frustrations and disappointments, worked out in just the right way to prepare me for ordination. But I am under no illusion that it is so for everyone.
 
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Paidiske

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That's interesting, Deegie. Here we have no parish discernment process before going to the diocese. But the diocese does put you through a year-long discernment process.

I would say similar. I had a process with a good outcome. But not everybody does.
 
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Deegie

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Interesting. I just assumed everyone did it the same way we do. :)

Here, although of course it varies by diocese, a discernment committee is first formed in the parish. This committee usually has some sort of guidelines from the diocese, such as the number of sessions and the questions they should address. This can be one source of difficulty for those aspiring to ordained ministry since it usually requires the approval of the rector -- and if there is a vacancy or if the rector is not supportive, the process cannot even begin. Then after the parish committee finishes its work and issues a report (hopefully) affirming the call, the vestry officially nominates the person to the diocese. That is when the bishop and diocesan Commission on Ministry get involved. So it's really like having to go through two processes, each of which can easily take a year or more. From when I walked into my rector's office to begin the discussion to actually being granted postulancy by the bishop took me about six years.

In Australia, then, does one express interest in ordination directly to the diocese and then the process begins from there?
 
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Shane R

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+Royal Grote Jr., Presiding Bishop/ President of the Reformed Episcopal Church died in his sleep at his Texas home yesterday (Thanksgiving Day in the US). I think we have a few folks on this board who are likely to have encountered him in times past - myself included.

Interestingly - since we have been discussing the discernment process - I was presented to him as an aspirant at one point and his attitude was more or less: Oh, whatever, send him to see +Ray Sutton.
 
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Paidiske

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At least it wasn't a no, Shane! May he rest in peace, and rise in glory.

In Australia, then, does one express interest in ordination directly to the diocese and then the process begins from there?

The details vary by diocese, but usually the first step is to approach the person in the diocese who has responsibility for overseeing the selection/formation process (in Melbourne called the Director of Theological Education). If you don't immediately come across as a fruit loop in that first conversation, you're invited to undertake a "year of discernment," during which the diocese has a series of evenings - I think it's seven - where you go to a group discussion with input about some particular aspect of ministry, and in between you meet with a mentor and reflect on what you've heard, and what you've been reading, and how this fits with your sense of vocation.

Towards the end of that year, you can then apply formally for ordination, and at that point you're asked to get references from your vicar, and (from memory, this is a while ago for me now) a church warden, another clergy person who has known you for x years, several other lay people, as well as having a psych evaluation, medical, and all sorts of other things like writing your life story and so on. All of that goes to two people who are designated "examining chaplains" in the diocese, and you go and meet with both of them and they try to assess your sense of vocation and whether you are a plausible candidate for ministry. If they both agree no, the process ends there; if they disagree (one yes and one no) you get sent to a third for a tie-breaker. If they both agree yes, you're invited to a selection conference, which is a day-long event where you have five interviews - on vocation (with the bishop), on personality and relationships (with the person who did the psych evaluation), on spirituality, on leadership, and what they call the "intellectual" interview which is really looking at whether you have the capacity for theological study and, if so, exactly what do you need to do to meet diocesan requirements (with the dean of a theological college). Your spouse or fiance, if you have one, goes with you to the vocation and personality and relationships interviews. And at the end they have what they call a "fish bowl" where the put the five people being interviewed that day into a group and give you a hypothetical problem to discuss, so they can see how you interact in a group.

Then you go home utterly exhausted and wait for a letter with the diocesan crest on the envelope, which either says yes, you're now a candidate, this is what you have to do before we ordain you; or no, we don't think you're suitable, best of luck in your ministry as a lay person; or you might be a good candidate but you're not ready yet, or we're not sure, please think of applying again in a couple of years. The only exception to that that I've known is one woman I was at college with to whom it was suggested that perhaps becoming a nun was her vocation, rather than ordained ministry. But that is extremely rare.

I actually moved parishes during my year of discernment, because the vicar of my original parish didn't support the ordination of women, and I knew he wouldn't recommend me for that reason.

So for me, from the first time I walked into the Director of Theological Education's office, to the time I had a "letter with a hat on it" which said yes, you're now a candidate, was about eighteen months.
 
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Paidiske

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I was at an ordination of priests this morning. 23 new priests in the Church of God.

So many precious stories to go with that event; and I don't even know them all. Some things which stood out:

- We had a priest who is being licensed to a Maori congregation. A Maori bishop from New Zealand came to be part of the service, providing that tangible link with whanau and whenua which is so much a part of Maori spirituality.

- One of the priests being ordained today has a father who is also a priest. He stood next to me, hands shaking and tears running down his face on his eleventh anniversary of priesting, as his oldest daughter was also made a priest.

- One of the priests today has been a much-loved theology lecturer for many decades, someone I look up to as a fine man and Christian. He was set on the path to ordination in the Anglican Church (after having been Uniting Church for a long time) when his daughter died last year and it was our church which gave him the care he most needed.

I came home feeling so refreshed, so touched by how precious our life together really is, so renewed and ready to face the challenges of Advent and Christmas.

Praise God for his goodness and mercy to us in all the changes and chances of life.
 
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Paidiske

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Oh bless.

I just asked my daughter (just turned five) if she knew what tomorrow was.

After a thoughtful pause, I got the excited reply, "School!"

No, my sweetheart, I know you're excited about school, but there are some other things happening before that.

I bet she's the only kid in Australia more excited about school than Christmas!
 
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Arcangl86

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Oh bless.

I just asked my daughter (just turned five) if she knew what tomorrow was.

After a thoughtful pause, I got the excited reply, "School!"

No, my sweetheart, I know you're excited about school, but there are some other things happening before that.

I bet she's the only kid in Australia more excited about school than Christmas!
You have an odd daughter. BTW, I think this proves you and your husband are doing things right.
 
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Shane R

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Let's talk about incense. With a little nudging, my priest-in-charge got permission from the landlords to use incense on Christmas. The organist had a huge melt-down about this "high-church innovation." He pointed out to her that it is actually prescribed by the Abp. and that a majority of the congregation was favorable to the change and told her to live with it. But, it has been five years or more since he actually performed the procedure and he has forgotten how. I got training from the Abp. back in September and am having to remediate him. He has concluded it will likely be best for me to be the thurifer.

All that is fine, but it has led me to recognize some of his weaknesses as a pastor. He has been so caught up in theological research that he has done little catechesis on these day to day things.
 
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Paidiske

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I find that catechesis on the day-to-day things is actually very hard to do, because we don't have an expectation that room be made for it in our life together. I mean, people expect it for children but forget that adults need it too.

The best way I've found is to insert relevant liturgical comments into the notices; "oh, and you may have noticed that today x happened, and this illustrates y," kind of thing. But it's hard to be systematic that way.

I must admit if I were going to do something like introduce incense I'd give key people warning ahead of time. People get anxious when they are taken by surprise.
 
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Shane R

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He always makes changes very deliberately and had thoroughly canvassed the regulars and really only encountered opposition from the organist. She is rather Protestant-minded and broad/center church.

Do you cense the altar and congregation?
 
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Paidiske

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Not in either of the two parishes where I work now. In my previous curacy we did for all major services (main service on Sundays and feast days).

Here it isn't the custom; the closest I've come is introducing a pot of incense on the altar during Tenebrae, and I'm quite certain my vicar would object to more (I'm only allowed to wear a chasuble twice a year; Christmas and Easter).

Incense is something I see as adiaphora; used well it adds something very special to the liturgy, used badly it becomes a problem. Mostly I'm happy to use it or not as is the custom of the place where I'm serving.
 
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Shane R

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It is the expectation of our Abp. that the weekly Holy Communion service should be presided by a celebrant in cassock and alb with chasuble. Incense is to be preferred, but some exceptions are made for those parishes which occupy a rental.
 
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Arcangl86

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It is the expectation of our Abp. that the weekly Holy Communion service should be presided by a celebrant in cassock and alb with chasuble. Incense is to be preferred, but some exceptions are made for those parishes which occupy a rental.
How do you deal with parishioners with respiratory issues?
 
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