Anyone have good arguments against Calvinism.

[Dan Perez]

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It is foolish for you, for me it is not. Because I believe God and His promise, that all who believe in Jesus at the very moment of belief, cross over from death to life.

J. Wilbur Chapman tells the following true story of how D.L. Moody used John 5:24 to help him gain assurance of salvation:

I was studying for the ministry, and I heard that D.L. Moody was to preach in Chicago. I went to hear him. Finally I got into his after meeting. I shall never forget the thrill that went through me when he came and sat down beside me as an inquirer. He asked me if I was a Christian. I said, “Mr. Moody, I am not sure whether I am a Christian or not.’
He very kindly took his Bible and opened it to the fifth chapter of John, and the twenty-fourth verse, which reads as follows: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and beleiveth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.”

Suppose you had read it through for the first time, wouldn’t you think it was wonderful? I read it through, and he said, “Do you believe it?” I said, “Yes.” “Do you accept it?” I said, “Yes.” “Well, are you a Christian?”

“Mr. Moody, I sometimes think I am, and sometimes I am afraid I am not.”
He very kindly said, “Read it again.”

So I read it again, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and beleiveth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.”Then he said, “Do you believe it?” I said, “Yes.” “Do you receive Him?” I said, “Yes.” “Well,” he said, “are you a Christian?”

I just started to say over again that sometimes I was afraid I was not, when the only time in all the years I knew him and loved him, he was sharp with me. He turned on me with his eyes flashing and said, “See here, whom are you doubting?”

Then I saw it for the first time, that when I was afraid I was not a Christian I was doubting God’s Word. I read it again with my eyes overflowing with tears.

Since that day I have had many sorrows and many joys, but never have I doubted for a moment that I was a Christian, because God said it.

And John 5:24 says he that. HEARETH my WORD /. LOGOS. , is in. the Greek Present Tense , means continuous.

action in the present tense , really. ?

dan p

 

[d taylor]

And John 5:24 says he that. HEARETH my WORD /. LOGOS. , is in. the Greek Present Tense , means continuous.

action in the present tense , really. ?

dan p

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Is “Continuous” Believing Required for the New Birth? – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Hentenza]

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Is “Continuous” Believing Required for the New Birth? – Grace Evangelical Society

If you have to rely in a cut and paste then that means that you don‘t know the subject. Your knowledge is not your own.

 

[9Rock9]

I'm a Provisionist and an ex-Calvinist. I had some doubts about Calvinism for awhile, particularly with regards to the problem of evil and limited atonement.

While I am sure Calvinists don't actually teach that God is the author of evil, I personally couldn't reconcile it with my own understanding of Calvinism, and saying that God is the author of evil just seems the logical conclusion of Calvinsim. After all, if God preordains everything, then does that mean he preordained evil?

I was a four point Calvinist because I thought it was obvious from Scriptures that God died for the sins of the whole world and does not with to see anyone damned for eternity.

What really started to dissuade me from Calvinism was the idea of corporate election. I used to believe in unconditional election, because I thought the alternative meant that God chose people based on foreseen faith, and therefore makes God dependent on man's will.

Corporate election, on the other hand, means that God has elected a people to be his. While the Church is made up of individuals, election is not understood as being primarily of individuals, but as part of being a member of the Church. Christ is the elect individual, and all who are in him become a part of the elect. It's supposedly closer to the 1st Century Jewish view than Calvinism is in that the Jewish people weren't as individualistic as modern western Christians.

Once I changed my mind about election, the rest of Calvinism unraveled for me.

 

[d taylor]

If you have to rely in a cut and paste then that means that you don‘t know the subject. Your knowledge is not your own.

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Oh ok Mr Bible expert.

 

[Hentenza]

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Oh ok Mr Bible expert.

Is the other poster debating you or your cut and paste?

 

[d taylor]

Is the other poster debating you or your cut and paste?

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I will conduct my post as i want to and i will not have some know it all. Criticize how i do post, my post, so if you have a problem with it you can just get over it.

 

[Hentenza]

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I will conduct my post as i want to and i will not have some know it all. Criticize how i do post, my post, so if you have a problem with it you can just get over it.

lol but you won’t answer my post.

 

[Fastfredy]

After all, if God preordains everything, then does that mean he preordained evil?

1. Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, that [Israel] might destroy them utterly, and that without favor and mercy, as the Lord commanded Moses. The Canaanites were destroyed by Joshua
2. Joshua 23:15 But just as all the good things that the Lord your God promised concerning you have been fulfilled for you, so the Lord will bring upon you all the evil things, until he has destroyed you from off this good land that the Lord your God has given you, ESV
3. Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem
4. 1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented and troubled him.
5. 2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will stir up evil against you from your own household;
6. 2 Samuel 24:1 The Lord “incited” David to take a census of the people, but afterward David recognized this as sin, saying, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done” (2 Samuel 24:10), and God sent punishment on the land because of this sin (2 Samuel 24:12-17). However, it is clear that “the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel” (2 Samuel 24:1), so God’s inciting of David to sin was a means by which he brought about punishment on the people of Israel. Moreover, the means by which God incited David is made clear in 1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel.” The Bible shows here that God, in order to bring about His purposes, worked through Satan to incite David to sin, but Scripture regards David as being responsible for that sin.

I could list another 30+ verses or so

Once I changed my mind about election,

Tons of verses support the doctrine of God selecting those He will save:

1. John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I [Jesus] chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. … and by extension, all Christians … Arminian: "You have 'chosen' me only because you know that I would choose you, so that my will logically precedes and determines your will!" He says, "If conversion is necessary, then by my will I will turn against my wickedness, even my own evil will, by my might I will escape from Satan's hold and sin's grip, and by my power I will turn to Christ and permit him to save me, as if I need him at all." Vincent Cheung
2. Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed (decided on beforehand; designated) for eternal life believed. Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed (decided on beforehand; designated) for eternal life believed.
3. Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion [nations cannot “will” or “exert”], but on God, who has mercy.
4. Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace and favor
5. John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD. Martin Luther: they become the sons of God, neither by the birth of the flesh, nor by a devoted observance of the law, nor by any devoted human effort whatever, but by a Divine birth only. Those three negative statements stress the fact that salvation is not obtainable through any racial or ethnic heritage ( blood ), personal desire ( flesh ), or man-made system ( man ). (See also Matthew 8:11–12; Luke 3:8; Galatians 3:28–29.) John MacArthur

I could list another 100 verses or so

 

[d taylor]

lol but you won’t answer my post.

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You have not said anything worth answering

 

[Hentenza]

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You have not said anything worth answering

Neither have you. Your c&p talks for you because you can’t.

 

[Fastfredy]

Your c&p talks for you because you can’t.

Nothing wrong with C&Ps ..... I clip bible verses all the time or the thoughts of doctrinal experts. Also, saves time.

 

[d taylor]

Neither have you. Your c&p talks for you.

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Notice i have never quoted any of your post (until these last 2 or 3), but you have quoted mine (#102), which i ignored.

So that shows you were not worth having a discussion with and your last three post have proved my impression that you are a waste of time.

 

[Hentenza]

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Notice i have never quoted any of your post (until these last 2 or 3), but you have quoted mine (#102), which i ignored.

So that shows you were not worth having a discussion with and your last three post have proved my impression that you are a waste of time.

That’s fine. Please don’t quote my posts. Thanks.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

You only addressed 1/2 of the verse. How about “not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Paul) And “
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”(James).
‭‭

I will posit to you that all that have saving faith do indeed meet the love parameters of 1 Cor. 13. Faith alone by someone with saving faith automatically produce good works so salvation by faith alone, as Paul teaches, is not a deception. A deception is those churches that require works FOR salvation. In fact many cults teach that to keep their people in line, obedient and in bondage.

I volunteer twice a month at a soup kitchen that is organized and managed by a husband and wife that are atheist. They are the most humble and nice people that I have ever met and have more hope and charity than most. We enjoy having theological discussions which I consider to be God working through me to plant seeds. I see more Christians boasting about their works that I see most “natural” people. In fact Ghandy stated that he loved our Jesus but hated our Christians. Your church is failing in its mission to spread the gospel if they teach you such haughty type teachings. Jesus came and worked with the sick (not health wise primarily).

Justice, prudence, and fortitude are works by which people can boast. These are results of saving faith not works.

You have the typical faith plus works soteriology that your church incorrectly teaches. Paul and James are indeed not in tension, Paul speaks of salvation by the grace of God through faith without works which leads to justification. James teaches about the lifelong journey of sanctification for those with saving faith. You are incorrect in your thinking that sola fide teaches that anyone that professes their faith are indeed saved. That has never been the case. I going to give you two sets of verses to study.


In first set Jesus teaches about the different types of faith in the parable of the sower.

“And He told them many things in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and they sprang up immediately, because they had no depth of soil. But after the sun rose, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. But others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundred, some sixty, and some thirty times as much. The one who has ears, let him hear.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭3‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 13:3-9 And He told them many things in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky pla | New American Standard Bible - NA

And He told them many things in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky pla

bible.com

Only those whose seed fell in good soil have saving faith and are justified. Many of the others could get there if they in fact, and by the heart actually choose Jesus as their Lord and Savior not just a profession of faith.

In the second set of verses Paul teaches how our works (those works that God prepared beforehand for us to do) will be judged at judgement day.

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can | New American Standard Bib

According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can

bible.com

As long as the believer has saving faith, even if they stumble in their works, they will be saved. The reason is that the works that we do we do FROM salvation not FOR salvation.

“They said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed; but he, Paul, shows that he who adhered to faith alone is blessed.”- St. John Chrysostom (347 – 407 AD) (Homily on Galatians 3)

“Indeed, this is the perfect and complete glorification of God, when one does not exult in his own righteousness, but recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ.”- St. Basil the Great (330 – 379 AD) (Homily on Humility, PG 31.532; TFoTC vol. 9, p. 479)

I hope and pray that the above enlightens you and helps you understand this topic better.

I don’t know how you can even think what you are saying is logical.
You disparage virtue as boastful acts and boast that you work in a soup kitchen. Doesn’t add up

No one said that we are saved by works, yet if we are saved we demonstrate works as you yourself have said. We cannot claim to be saved yet refuse to do good works as scripture says. The clearest demonstration of this comes from the prophet Ezekiel

21 But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die. 22 I will not remember all his iniquities that he hath done: in his justice which he hath wrought, he shall live. 23 Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? 24 But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die. 25 And you have said: The way of the Lord is not right. Hear ye, therefore, O house of Israel: Is it my way that is not right, and are not rather your ways perverse?

26 For when the just turneth himself away from his justice, and committeth iniquity, he shall die therein: in the injustice that he hath wrought he shall die. 27 And when the wicked turneth himself away from his wickedness, which he hath wrought, and doeth judgment, and justice: he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth and turneth away himself from all his iniquities which he hath wrought, he shall surely live, and not die. 29 And the children of Israel say: The way of the Lord is not right. Are not my ways right, O house of Israel, and are not rather your ways perverse? 30 Therefore will I judge every man according to his ways, O house of Israel, saith the Lord God. Be converted, and do penance for all your iniquities: and iniquity shall not be your ruin


The just man described by the prophet had many good works but they were of no value to him as he turned to iniquity. The works did not save him and salvation was not owed him as a wage.
The wicked man had very little good works, yet he turned from iniquity and is saved by God, because he ceased from iniquity and began to do good works. That is all it takes, we receive salvation from Jesus and He says go away and don’t sin anymore. He does not say just say you believe in me and I’ll overlook your sin. We are required to cease from iniquity

 

[Hentenza]

I don’t know how you can even think what you are saying is logical.
You disparage virtue as boastful acts and boast that you work in a soup kitchen. Doesn’t add up

No one said that we are saved by works, yet if we are saved we demonstrate works as you yourself have said. We cannot claim to be saved yet refuse to do good works as scripture says.

Non responsive. You did not address my post. When you claim that salvation by faith alone is a deception then you are adding works to the equation. So which is it? Salvation by faith alone or salvation by faith plus works?

 

[Hoping2]

Swine snout or not, it frees one from God's condemnation at the Judgment.

It frees us from sinning now, as those made righteous are righteous.

Imputation is not inherent, it is only a legal standing in God's Court of Justice, freeing one from condemnation.

Righteousness is inherent in rebirth from God's seed.

It's no about Jesus' arm. . .it's about satisfaction of God's justice.
Apart from Jesus, no one is inherently perfect until the resurrection.

I am sure glad I am "in Jesus" now.
And in Him, is no sin.
Which means there are no sinners in Him

Lotta' misunderstanding of NT doctrine. . .

The correct doctrines don't leave us in sin.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Just to clarify how grace works. A person who believes that man's will plays a role in salvation, does not believe that man earns their salvation by works. We are not good enough to use it as a payment for sin. In that regard, "we can not boast". We are not justified by perfect obedience either. For all of us will have some sin.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.​

The cross is still necessary for salvation. For there is not a just man on earth who does not sin.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."​

However, the reason for Jesus giving us the Holy Spirit was to empower us to be free from the devil and sin.

1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.​

The Holy Spirit daily motivates us to keep away from sin.

1Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.​

But because of our free will, we may at times, "rebel", or "stumble" into sin. But this is not God's will. But God because He is "just" allows us time to repent. Meaning to return from our sin to right standing.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.​

Rev 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.​

Free will opens up the possibility that we can return to our old life, or sin, but this can lead to being cut off.

2Pe 1:9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.​

Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.​

So a better way to understand grace is to put it on it's head.

It is not good works that save, but evil ones that damn.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Non responsive. You did not address my post. When you claim that salvation by faith alone is a deception then you are adding works to the equation. So which is it? Salvation by faith alone or salvation by faith plus works?

Salvation is BY grace alone which includes good works by the power of God, faith being one of them.
We do not perform the work of faith to receive the grace of God. Faith comes by hearing
There is no such thing as faith which is devoid of works. We show our faith by our works

Speaking ill of good works and calling virtue boastful is not the Gospel

Faith empowers us to do good works, else it is not faith. Jesus warned us of a form of godliness that denies the power thereof, and that some would no longer endure sound doctrine

These three remain Faith, Hope and Charity. Faith is never alone, else scripture says it is nothing and/or dead. 1Cor13 and James 2

Babes in Christ require training in righteousness, which is the practice of good works. Those that refuse good works cause the word of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles

 

[Fastfredy]

A person who believes that man's will plays a role in salvation

Everyone believes that man's will plays a role in salvation. The crux of the matter is, "WHO determines what one willed in regard to salvation", God or themself. If one believes one's will in regard to salvation operates independently of God, then by the definition of "work" one should logically believe in salvation by that work per the following syllogism:
Premise 1: Work is the mental or physical activity one performs to achieve a purpose. (see dictionary)
Conclusion: A salvific belief in God which is determined independently from God is a work of the person.

Verses concerning "why one believes salvificly" always point to God as the cause (i.e. John 1:12-13). Verses like John 3:16 that state "whosoever believes" does not give a reason for why one "believes", and the cause of belief is assumed according to one's prejudice.

On the other hand, if God determines your will in regard to believing salvificly, then you are NOT performing the WORK of faith, you are but the instrument of God's work. This fits nicely with John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” AMP

The Holy Spirit daily motivates us to keep away from sin.

Agreed

It is not good works that save,

Again, if one believes in "free will" as defined as "a self-determined will to believe salvificly", then by the definition of "work" your statement is a logical contradiction. Again, WORK is defined as a mental or physical activity to accomplish a purpose..