Anyone have good arguments against Calvinism.

[bling]

God's Love.

 

[d taylor]

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

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Ok Jesus was teaching the 11 about how The Tanakh was about the coming Messiah, who was Jesus.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

In other words they were not willing to believe Jesus is who He said He is, to believe in Jesus.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

[Hoping2]

The scripture talks about both, so pitting the two ideas against one another results in unnatural states.

Only one idea can be true.
Either one is forced to be converted, or one can choose to convert.

 

[Fervent]

Only one idea can be true.
Either one is forced to be converted, or one can choose to convert.

It's not that black and white, you're presenting a false dilemma.

The church universally recognizes that salvation is through God's initiative, but the notion that it's either God does everything or man is choosing to convert misses the answer of the historic church, which is that man's role is an act of surrender in response to God's message of salvation. It is not making a choice, except to allow God to envelop us and transform us because when we hear the gospel the scales fall off and we are able to see the horror of living according to our own devices.

 

[Hoping2]

It's not that black and white, you're presenting a false dilemma.

The church universally recognizes that salvation is through God's initiative, but the notion that it's either God does everything or man is choosing to convert misses the answer of the historic church, which is that man's role is an act of surrender in response to God's message of salvation. It is not making a choice, except to allow God to envelop us and transform us because when we hear the gospel the scales fall off and we are able to see the horror of living according to our own devices.

The credit card is on the table, (God's plan of salvation): but we have to pick it up and use it.
Salvation is available to all men, but few choose to submit to the One who offers it.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Only one idea can be true.
Either one is forced to be converted, or one can choose to convert.

Both are rooted in a false premise.

The idea doesn't matter.

 

[Fervent]

The credit card is on the table, (God's plan of salvation): but we have to pick it up and use it.
Salvation is available to all men, but few choose to submit to the One who offers it.

Yeah, but the issue is how we characterize the action. It is the preaching of the gospel that cures the blind and deaf, we still have to make a response but our role is a passive one rather than a matter of deliberate action.

What I mean by this is we must first reach a point where we stop resisting God's drawing, not make a move towards God. It's a surrender, not a seeking out.

 

[Hoping2]

Both are rooted in a false premise.

The idea doesn't matter.

I disagree.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I disagree.

Irrelevant. It is what it is.

 

[Fervent]

Both are rooted in a false premise.

The idea doesn't matter.

It's a logical consequence of an extreme view of Original Sin vs Pelagianism, if we are so thoroughly tainted that nothing of the image of God survives then only God's productive action can lead to our choosing Him. But if we ar able to save ourselves by obeying God, then there is no need for Christ's atoning sacrifice. The middle road isn't well seen in the West because it was articulated in Greek and the discussion in the West was dominated by people that only understood Latin.

 

[Hoping2]

Yeah, but the issue is how we characterize the action. It is the preaching of the gospel that cures the blind and deaf, we still have to make a response but our role is a passive one rather than a matter of deliberate action.

What I mean by this is we must first reach a point where we stop resisting God's drawing, not make a move towards God. It's a surrender, not a seeking out.

I can't agree.
I will cite three scrip's...

1. Matthew 6:33
   But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
   
   
2. Matthew 7:7
   Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
   
   
3. Matthew 7:8
   For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

[Fervent]

I can't agree.
I will cite three scrip's...

1. Matthew 6:33
   But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
   
   
2. Matthew 7:7
   Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
   
   
3. Matthew 7:8
   For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

In response, I will cite one passage:

Romans 10:10-17(ESV): 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Taking a step back from that way of thinking and am looking for different ways of looking at it.

have you ever considered just learning from Scripture?

You know, instead of just learning arguments.

Know thy God.



Since your wanting to argue with Calvinists I thought to be helpful and provide one.

 

[Hoping2]

In response, I will cite one passage:

Romans 10:10-17(ESV): 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

I rejoice in the fact that I was presented with the truth, and believed it.
If I endure faithfully until the end, my belief will be unto eternal life !

 

[Fervent]

I rejoice in the fact that I was presented with the truth, and believed it.
If I endure faithfully until the end, my belief will be unto eternal life !

As do I, but framing it as us "choosing" God ignores the reality of the pit we're in prior to salvation. Belief is far more complicated than a simple choice, and we can't just will ourselves to believe. To suggest otherwise is to flirt with Pelagianism, which has been anathematized since the 5th century.

 

[Hoping2]

As do I, but framing it as us "choosing" God ignores the reality of the pit we're in prior to salvation.

How so ?
I realized I needed help, and grabbed the Life line that was tossed to me.

Belief is far more complicated than a simple choice, and we can't just will ourselves to believe. To suggest otherwise is to flirt with Pelagianism, which has been anathematized since the 5th century.

Men get the information they need to make choices.
Either one believes or they don't.
It doesn't seem complicated to me.
Is it a complicated choice to get into an elevator going up ?
No, as the obvious result makes the choice easy.

 

[Fervent]

How so ?
I realized I needed help, and grabbed the Life line that was tossed to me.

Sure, but there were all sorts of circumstances that put you in that place, in that frame of mind, and presented the message at the right time.

Men get the information they need to make choices.

Yes, and our choices can alter our beliefs but belief is not itself a choice.

Either one believes or they don't.

There but for the grace of God...

It doesn't seem complicated to me.

No matter how hard someone tries, what they believe is not directly theirs to choose. Choices influence belief, but there's more to the cocktail.

Is it a complicated choice to get into an elevator going up ?

I'm not discounting the role of choice, simply that there are two sides to the coin and there is a good deal of things that are not in our control that can prevent us from believing.

No, as the obvious result makes the choice easy.

Sure, but the analogy is inapt.

 

[Hoping2]

Sure, but there were all sorts of circumstances that put you in that place, in that frame of mind, and presented the message at the right time.

Yes, and our choices can alter our beliefs but belief is not itself a choice.

There but for the grace of God...

No matter how hard someone tries, what they believe is not directly theirs to choose. Choices influence belief, but there's more to the cocktail.

I'm not discounting the role of choice, simply that there are two sides to the coin and there is a good deal of things that are not in our control that can prevent us from believing.

Sure, but the analogy is inapt.

Everyone acts on what they believe.

 

[Fervent]

Everyone acts on what they believe.

Yes, and we are responsible for our choices and our choices partially create our beliefs. But that doesn't mean we can make ourselves believe something by making one choice.

 

[Hoping2]

Yes, and we are responsible for our choices and our choices partially create our beliefs. But that doesn't mean we can make ourselves believe something by making one choice.

We choose what we believe.
Some choose to believe in UFOs.
Others choose not to believe they exist.
How can one believe something they choose not to believe ?