Anti-universalism hostility

[yeshuaslavejeff]

He is grieved when even the wicked die, yes. There is no more hope for them, ever.

 

[Der Alte]

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Luke and John also wrote this.

Luke 9:24
(24) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luke 9:26
(26) For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
Luke 12:9
(9) But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:10
(10) And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Luke 13:4
(4) Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5
(5) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:28
(28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luke 13:29
(29) And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 16:25-26
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luke 18:17
(17) Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
Luke 20:17-18
(17) And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
(18) Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Luke 22:21-22
(21) But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
(22) And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. ​

 

[Alain Valdivia]

God’s grace is indeed higher than that. However, as much as God is merciful and gracious He is also righteous and just. Those who would have a God of mercy but not a God of justice cause a division in the person of God. For inasmuch as God is love, He must consequently abhor that which is contrary to charity. Sin, of course, is the gravest offense against charity and because of this it deserves punishment. St. Chrysostom speaks about this, “‘But, They are men,’ some one will say, who do these things; as for God, He is loving unto men. Now, first of all, not even men do these things in cruelty, but in humanity. And God Himself, as He is loving unto men, in the same character does He punish sins. [ Sirach 16:12 ] For as His mercy is great, so also is His reproof. When therefore you say unto me, God is loving unto men, then you tell me of so much the greater reason for punishing: namely, our sinning against such a Being. Hence also Paul said, [ Hebrews 10:31 ] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Endure I beseech you, the fiery force of the words, for perhaps- perhaps you will have some consolation from hence! Who among men can punish as God has punished? When He caused a deluge and entire destruction of a race so numerous; and again, when, a little while after, He rained fire from above, and utterly destroyed them all? What punishment from men can be like that? Do you see not that the punishment even in this world is almost eternal? Four thousand years have passed away, and the punishment of the Sodomites abides at its height. For as His mercy is great, so also is His punishment.”’ Therefore, God is just and righteous in His condemnation of the wicked. Yes, indeed, God loved the whole world inasmuch as He does not desire their damnation, however, God does have a hatred towards the impenitent inasmuch as that sinner continues on the path of vices and refuses to repent. This, however, does not mean that God does not will that this sinner repent from His ways and be converted. Quite the opposite actually, because even His rebukes are meant to lead us to repentance.

 

[FineLinen]

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Dear Marty: The Lord Jesus Christ declares in no uncertain terms the scope of His reconciliation. I will draw/drag off in power/impel all unto Me. Yes Monster man, the radical all of pas is used to express the magnitude of His powerful draw!

The Master of at-one-ment has come to ratify our Father's cherished purpose of bringing the entire universe into alignment with His glorious Plan, the good, the bad & the ugly!

 

[martymonster]

If I read and pray how likely am I to suddenly discover something all of the millions before me didn't?

Why don't you ask the Pharisees.

 

[FineLinen]

God’s grace is indeed higher than that. However, as much as God is merciful and gracious He is also righteous and just. Those who would have a God of mercy but not a God of justice cause a division in the person of God. For inasmuch as God is love, He must consequently abhor that which is contrary to charity. Sin, of course, is the gravest offense against charity and because of this it deserves punishment. St. Chrysostom speaks about this, “‘But, They are men,’ some one will say, who do these things; as for God, He is loving unto men. Now, first of all, not even men do these things in cruelty, but in humanity. And God Himself, as He is loving unto men, in the same character does He punish sins. [ Sirach 16:12 ] For as His mercy is great, so also is His reproof. When therefore you say unto me, God is loving unto men, then you tell me of so much the greater reason for punishing: namely, our sinning against such a Being. Hence also Paul said, [ Hebrews 10:31 ] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Endure I beseech you, the fiery force of the words, for perhaps- perhaps you will have some consolation from hence! Who among men can punish as God has punished? When He caused a deluge and entire destruction of a race so numerous; and again, when, a little while after, He rained fire from above, and utterly destroyed them all? What punishment from men can be like that? Do you see not that the punishment even in this world is almost eternal? Four thousand years have passed away, and the punishment of the Sodomites abides at its height. For as His mercy is great, so also is His punishment.”’ Therefore, God is just and righteous in His condemnation of the wicked. Yes, indeed, God loved the whole world inasmuch as He does not desire their damnation, however, God does have a hatred towards the impenitent inasmuch as that sinner continues on the path of vices and refuses to repent. This, however, does not mean that God does not will that this sinner repent from His ways and be converted. Quite the opposite actually, because even His rebukes are meant to lead us to repentance.

Dear Alain: All aspects of Abba, the Father of all fathers flow from His essence. Dearest Daddy will have every last child of His in alignment with Himself in character. What He is, we must become!

The Divine equation is>>>

Adam1= the many "made sinners"

Last Adam= the many "made righteous".

The identical many made sinners = the many made righteous!

Justice >>>

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Quite the opposite actually, because even His rebukes are meant to lead us to repentance.

He not only always does what is best for someone, but tells us, His children , to let others that we are required to do what is best for them too.

His Perfect Wisdom, Justice, Knowledge and Plan and Purpose in Christ Jesus,
the supreme one time crucifixion of Jesus,
all requires faith (without faith it is impossible to please God),
and trust: whoever trusts Jesus has life....

but whoever trusts not Jesus, has not life. This cannot be changed, nor His Word Twisted as if to save the wicked who are already condemned for their unbelief.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why don't you ask the Pharisees.

He did after all ask you .....

 

[Saint Steven]

The false gospel is full of statements confirming universalism as if it were Yahweh's Plan -
but since it is false in its entirety, origination, and propagation,
those who succumb to it are or may be lost, for now.

Your post actually affirms the greater hope. - lol

But what is "The false gospel" to which you refer?
And how is it "full of statements confirming universalism"?
How did you determine that it is "false in its entirety, origination, and propagation"?
And that "those who succumb to it are or may be lost, for now"?
For now? -
May be lost, for now? -
Then what? -

 

[Saint Steven]

I think it is insane to lose a soul eternally...

That just sounds careless to me. I'm sure it will turn up eventually.
I mean, how far could it have gone? Certainly the Good Shepherd can find it. No worries.

 

[Alain Valdivia]

Probably the best verse to refute the idea that God, in the end, will unite all of the damned to Himself and bring them to paradise to be fully consecrated to His love is Matthew 25:46 which says, “And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.” Thomas Aquinas, when speaking of the eternal out of hell says this: “It is written (Mt. 25:46) of the elect conjointly with the damned: "These shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting." But it is inadmissible that the life of the just will ever have an end. Therefore it is inadmissible that the punishment of the damned will ever come to an end.” In other words, if Jesus correlates between the eternity of the blessed in heaven and the eternity of the damned in hell then grammatically it means that both will last for eternity. How so? Because when Christ compares them both as being equal it’s logical to conclude that both sides will suffer the same effect. If the just shall be in heaven for eternity then the damned must also be in hell for eternity since the grammar requires it to be so.
‭

 

[FineLinen]

Probably the best verse to refute the idea that God, in the end, will unite all of the damned to Himself and bring them to paradise to be fully consecrated to His love is Matthew 25:46 which says, “And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.”
‭

Dear Alain: There is no word in koine that can be translated "damned", NONE.

Abba is bringing every last broken element of Adams disobedience back Home to Himself. Not part of it, the entire scope of pas and ta pante.

Can you tell us the 5 qualifications for "everlasting punishment" according to the parable of our Master in St. Matthew 25?

 

[Saint Steven]

Probably the best verse to refute the idea that God, in the end, will unite all of the damned to Himself and bring them to paradise to be fully consecrated to His love is Matthew 25:46 which says, “And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.” Thomas Aquinas, when speaking of the eternal out of hell says this: “It is written (Mt. 25:46) of the elect conjointly with the damned: "These shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting." But it is inadmissible that the life of the just will ever have an end. Therefore it is inadmissible that the punishment of the damned will ever come to an end.” In other words, if Jesus correlates between the eternity of the blessed in heaven and the eternity of the damned in hell then grammatically it means that both will last for eternity. How so? Because when Christ compares them both as being equal it’s logical to conclude that both sides will suffer the same effect. If the just shall be in heaven for eternity then the damned must also be in hell for eternity since the grammar requires it to be so.
‭

Not every translation agrees.

Weymouth New Testament
"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."

Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

 

[Saint Steven]

He is grieved when even the wicked die, yes. There is no more hope for them, ever.

Who wins in that scenario? (sin)
Was that the grand plan God made, to lose? (nope)

 

[Saint Steven]

Sorry you think your crude bbq comment was in any way okay with God ....

Neither He nor I agree with you.

I thought you agreed that the lost had a choice.
1) Original recipe
2) Extra crispy

 

[Alain Valdivia]

Guys, you do not understand my reasoning. I’m not looking into the translation, but the grammar. When Christ compares the eternality of heaven he also related it to hell. Now no one would say that heaven is not really eternal and yet you say that it isn’t which is a contradiction to what Christ said in Matthew 25:46 since He compares and related the two as equals. Yet, I’m not the judge of your souls. It is Christ who will judge and He will separate the sheep from the goats. I can only hope that I will be among His right hand with the blessed.

 

[Der Alte]

Not every translation agrees.
Weymouth New Testament
"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Translations/versions are irrelevant unless the scholar lists the historical evidence he consulted to arrive at his definition.
Anybody can say "That translation is wrong, this translation is correct."
Please show me where any human being used the phrase "age during" except in private Bible translations such as Weymouth and Young's?
And in closing what makes a version literal? Wait a minute I know, if it supports UR then it is literal if not it is biased.
Should I prove from the NT that kolasis does not mean correction and aionios does mean eternal?
I can show 9 verses in the NT where Jesus defines "aionios" as everlasting/eternal.
John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:52

 

[Saint Steven]

Guys, you do not understand my reasoning. I’m not looking into the translation, but the grammar. When Christ compares the eternality of heaven he also related it to hell. Now no one would say that heaven is not really eternal and yet you say that it isn’t which is a contradiction to what Christ said in Matthew 25:46 since He compares and related the two as equals.

I agree that the two have to be equal.
What you don't understand is that life is not eternal.

If hell is not eternal than neither can life be eternal. Both are only for an age. Fortunately, there is another age, or ages to follow the age of life that you call eternal.

This was difficult for me to grasp when I first understood the scripture in question. If hell isn't eternal, then neither is life. That's just how it is. We can blame it on grammar, I suppose.

 

[FineLinen]

Guys, you do not understand my reasoning. I’m not looking into the translation, but the grammar. When Christ compares the eternality of heaven he also related it to hell. Now no one would say that heaven is not really eternal and yet you say that it isn’t which is a contradiction to what Christ said in Matthew 25:46 since He compares and related the two as equals. Yet, I’m not the judge of your souls. It is Christ who will judge and He will separate the sheep from the goats. I can only hope that I will be among His right hand with the blessed.

Dear Alain: I understand your reasoning.

The context of our Lord's words awaken a number of questions.

1. Why are two clean animals at issue, rather then one clean & one clean?

2. Why are pure virgins mentioned rather than pure virgins and unchaste women?

3. Why are servants of the master in the context as investors?

And again I ask you, what are the five conditions for "everlasting punishment", & in line with your reasoning, the five conditions (according to the context) of "everlasting life"?

ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell

 

[Daniel9v9]

Dear Daniel: Do not give me the "age of accountability" folly. These 5,475,000 children are sinners from birth. Yes Daniel, depraved sinners by birth. Perhaps you can express how the Father handles a situation of this magnitude?

Well, I’m Lutheran, so I don’t believe in an age of accountability. Here’s what we believe: Salvation, from beginning to end, is from God. But damnation, from beginning to end, is from man. This is a holy mystery that is apprehended through faith, which is given by the Holy Spirit, through the means of the Gospel.

Scriptures say that we are by nature children of wrath; brought forth in iniquity, conceived in sin and dead in sin. That is, we are sinners not because we sin, but rather, we sin because we’re sinners. Again, the Word of God says that no one is righteous before God - not even one. So, all are in need of God’s grace - a Saviour. What is born of the flesh must be born of the Spirit. This is true for all, regardless of age.

Now, it’s my belief that God’s grace may extend to the little ones who were not baptised, for we know that God is good and righteous, saying "Let the little children come to me", and while baptism is ordinarily the means of grace, that does not mean that God is bound by His own means. Quite simply, we can take comfort in that whatever God judges, it is good and right, and it’s not something we need to speculate on or worry about. Our concern should be to uphold the purity of God’s Law and Gospel, that is, the full council of God’s Word. And this means proclaiming the good news of the forgiveness of sins to the repentant, but warning to the unrepentant. That is, we must proclaim that there is salvation in Christ, but damnation for all who reject God's grace. When Christ says that the unbeliever will be condemned, it really means condemned, and we have to hold fast to the Word of Christ.