Answer me this question.

[Eilat]

So there is no All in John 3:16 right?

"world" = all.

 

[Guojing]

"world" = all.

But you do agree that his first coming was to Israel first right, given what Matthew 15:24 stated?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Question, if God promised Abraham (let's just forget that God had to bring Abraham out of unbelief to begin with) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky how did he acckmplish his election based on forseen belief?

Why didn't he choose Israel this way? Because God said "You are my chosen people not due to any characteristics or qualifications of your own. You are mine" in fact most of Israel doesn't believe in or follow God. So how can God save a people as vast as the stars in the sky if it is based on forseen belief? Do we honestly think billions of people believe on their own after hearing the gospel? Do we honestly think that there isn't some kind of unconditional election going on here? Since God chose Israel unconditonally? Why did God's method of Election change for the gentiles? Please explain.

Paul said the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. The gospel is God’s calling and does in and of itself have the power to elicit a response in an individual.

 

[BNR32FAN]

• [John 3:16 NASB]
• 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Does “whoever believes” really mean anyone and everyone? Look what Jesus says a few chapters later ...

• [John 10:25-29 NASB]
• Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

“My sheep” vs “not my sheep”
“Hear” vs “not hear”
“Believe” vs “not believe”
“Eternal live” vs “no eternal live”
“Gift from Father” vs “not a gift” (John 6:44)

When Jesus was in Bethesda He said this to men who were not His sheep and were seeking ways to kill Him

“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:33-34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

So there is no All in John 3:16 right?

The Greek word used is kosmos which refers to the whole world or universe. It can also refer to all mankind.

 

[atpollard]

When Jesus was in Bethesda He said this to men who were not His sheep and were seeking ways to kill Him

“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:33-34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

John 3:16 does not say that the whole world will not perish, no matter how anyone slices it.
John 3:16 does say that whosoever (the one who) believes will not perish, no matter how anyone denies it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

John 3:16 does not say that the whole world will not perish, no matter how anyone slices it.
John 3:16 does say that whosoever (the one who) believes will not perish, no matter how anyone denies it.

You missed my point friend. I wasn't advocating universalism, I was indicating that Jesus is trying to save everyone not only an elect group. It is clear from the passage that these men who were seeking to kill Him were not His sheep and yet Jesus was trying to save them all the same so that they would become His sheep.

 

[atpollard]

You missed my point friend. I wasn't advocating universalism, I was indicating that Jesus is trying to save everyone not only an elect group. It is clear from the passage that these men who were seeking to kill Him were not His sheep and yet Jesus was trying to save them all the same so that they would become His sheep.

And YOU missed the point that I was addressing the fact that one specific verse (John 3:16), raised by another poster as proof that God offers salvation to all men without exception, does not teach in that specific verse (John 3:16) what he claimed was taught. John 3:16 is not a proof text for your hypothesis ... that contradicts other verses (like John 10:26) ... so any verse other than John 3:16 is irrelevant to the point that I was making.

You are free to believe that Christ’s death saved no one and merely purchased an opportunity for anyone to be saved, placing salvation at the mercy of the will of men, if you wish. I will respectfully disagree and continue to believe that God says ... and it is so (like Ephesians 2:1-10).

 

[Clare73]

You missed my point friend. I wasn't advocating universalism, I was indicating that Jesus is trying to save everyone not only an elect group. It is clear from the passage that these men who were seeking to kill Him were not His sheep and yet Jesus was trying to save them all the same so that they would become His sheep.

Goats don't become sheep. . .

The sheep are either lost (not yet born again) or found (born again).

Christ calls the sheep, and the lost sheep know his voice and come.
And there is rejoicing in heaven every time one comes in.

For they are Christ's reward and inheritance from God (Ps 13:22; Rev 22:12; Eph 1:18), kept by his power (Eph 1:19), because they are his treasure (Ex 19:5; Dt 7:6, 26:18; Mal 3:17).

 

[BNR32FAN]

And YOU missed the point that I was addressing the fact that one specific verse (John 3:16), raised by another poster as proof that God offers salvation to all men without exception, does not teach in that specific verse (John 3:16) what he claimed was taught. John 3:16 is not a proof text for your hypothesis ... that contradicts other verses (like John 10:26) ... so any verse other than John 3:16 is irrelevant to the point that I was making.

You are free to believe that Christ’s death saved no one and merely purchased an opportunity for anyone to be saved, placing salvation at the mercy of the will of men, if you wish. I will respectfully disagree and continue to believe that God says ... and it is so (like Ephesians 2:1-10).

I didn’t quote John 3:16 I quoted John 5:34

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Throughout the chapter Jesus rebukes these nonbelievers who are seeking to kill Him and yet He specifically says that He is trying to save them. They are not His sheep but He is trying to convince them to be His sheep.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Goats don't become sheep. . .

The sheep are either lost (not yet born again) or found (born again).

Christ calls the sheep, and the lost sheep know his voice and come.
And there is rejoicing in heaven every time one comes in.
For they are Christ's reward and inheritance from God (Ps 13:22; Rev 22:12; Eph 1:18), kept by his power (Eph 1:19), because they are his treasure (Ex 19:5; Dt 7:6, 26:18; Mal 3:17).

So in John 5:34 was Jesus saying this to these nonbelievers who were seeking to kill Him so that they may be saved or was He lying?


“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Clare73]

So in John 5:34 was Jesus saying this to these nonbelievers who were seeking to kill Him
so that they may be saved or was He lying?


“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but
I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Was he saying they may be saved without faith in him and his work, or was he lying?

Was he saying they would all believe, or was he lying?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Was he saying they may be saved without faith in him and his work, or was he lying?

Was he saying they would all believe, or was he lying?

I haven’t made any indication of universalism as these questions are implying, I already told you that. Your just avoiding the question. John 5:34 is irrefutable evidence that Jesus was seeking to save everyone. This doesn’t mean that everyone will be saved it just means that salvation is offered to everyone, many will still refuse to accept it but one thing is clear, Calvin’s doctrines on this matter are hugely flawed to say the least.

 

[Frosty Cook]

You are speaking foolishness.

• I did not write “whosoever believes” in John 3:16, the Apostle did.
• I am not ignoring the rest of John 3 and John 6 and John 10 to build a theology on one verse that is contradicted by many other verses.
• I have no power to expand or limit the grace of God ... God is God and I am not.
• My thoughts on John 3:16 is that it means exactly what it says ... no less and no more. God has a love for all and a salvation for whosoever believes.

Have you considered that there may be a different world than the one mentioned in John 3:16? God loves his sheep (those that hear and believe him, John 10:26-30

Does God love the world in the following scriptures?

John 15:18-19, If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own; but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen ye out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

 

[BobRyan]

Question, if God promised Abraham (let's just forget that God had to bring Abraham out of unbelief to begin with) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky how did he acckmplish his election based on forseen belief?

Why didn't he choose Israel this way? Because God said "You are my chosen people not due to any characteristics or qualifications of your own. You are mine" in fact most of Israel doesn't believe in or follow God. So how can God save a people as vast as the stars in the sky if it is based on forseen belief? Do we honestly think billions of people believe on their own after hearing the gospel? Do we honestly think that there isn't some kind of unconditional election going on here? Since God chose Israel unconditonally? Why did God's method of Election change for the gentiles? Please explain.

A person can be appointed to be king or whatever then be a lousy one. The appointment by God as King did not mean "and of course you will always be faithful".

God chooses in 1 Cor 12 to give different gifts to different people - but that does not mean each person with a gift will always remain a Christian.

 

[BobRyan]

• [John 3:16 NASB]
• 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Does “whoever believes” really mean anyone and everyone?

Yes.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Pet 3.

Even though He knows that "only the FEW" of Matt 7 will choose to be on the narrow road.

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received him not"
John 1:12 "but to as many as received Him ..."

Look what Jesus says a few chapters later ...

• [John 10:25-29 NASB]
• Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

“My sheep” vs “not my sheep”
“Hear” vs “not hear”
“Believe” vs “not believe”
“Eternal live” vs “no eternal live”
“Gift from Father” vs “not a gift” (John 6:44)

Nothing in John 10 says that a unbeliever who rejects Christ is "His sheep in His fold" - all are outside who reject Christ but will later be inside that fold if they choose to accept the Gospel.

"I stand at the door and KNOCK if anyone OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.

 

[Clare73]

Have you considered that there may be a different world than the one mentioned in John 3:16? God loves his sheep (those that hear and believe him, John 10:26-30

Does God love the world in the following scriptures?

John 15:18-19, If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own; but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen ye out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

You do realize that post is over a year old, right?

 

[Frosty Cook]

Yes.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Pet 3.

Even though He knows that "only the FEW" of Matt 7 will choose to be on the narrow road.

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received him not"
John 1:12 "but to as many as received Him ..."


Nothing in John 10 says that a unbeliever who rejects Christ is "His sheep in His fold" - all are outside who reject Christ but will later be inside that fold if they choose to accept the Gospel.

"I stand at the door and KNOCK if anyone OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.

2 Pet 3:9, If we look at 2 Pet 1:1 we find that Peter is speaking about them that have like precious faith. Peter even includes himself in his speech by using the word "us-ward" Instructing them, that when they commit a sin, they should repent to regain their fellowship with God

Perish=death=separation. When a child of God commits a sin they lose their fellowship with God, temporary, until they repent.

Matt 7, Those who find the straight gate, that leads to an abundant, and joyful life, are the remnant of the household of Israel, and those who enter the wide gate are the disobedient household of Israel.

God said "you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16)



The natural man, in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot choose to accept a Spiritual God, and thinks it to be foolishness.

Rev 3,:20, You left out the part that says "if any man HEAR my voice"

 

[Frosty Cook]

You do realize that post is over a year old, right?

You realize that it is an old post, but can you answer the question?

 

[Frosty Cook]

You do realize that post is over a year old, right?

I have been away from the forum a long time, but can you answer my question?