Answer me this question.

[Clare73]

I have been away from the forum a long time, but can you answer my question?

In the context of the two Jewish reference points--Jews vs. Gentiles, I understand "world" to mean "not only Jews but also Gentiles."

 

[BobRyan]

2 Pet 3:9, If we look at 2 Pet 1:1 we find that Peter is speaking about them that have like precious faith.

Not the case in 2 Peter 3 where Peter says that the reason that Christ has not returned is that he is waiting for even more non-believers to be reached with the Gospel -- since He is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". Clearly Peter does not consider non-believers to be in a state of repentance.

How much more true is it then that he also does not claim that nonbelievers are of "like precious faith" as the saints.

Peter even includes himself in his speech by using the word "us-ward"

Peter argues that those to whom he is writing were not Christians at one time - and that includes Peter himself.

But the gospel came to them.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

God waits (and is still waiting) for more of the unsaved to accept the Gospel

Instructing them, that when they commit a sin, they should repent to regain their fellowship with God

2 Peter 3 is absolutely not limiting the statement to 'just those who are already Christian as of the writing of 2 Peter 3' as if evangelism had died 2000 years ago. The whole point of the chapter is that God delays his coming so that more people will have time to come in.

It is 100% focused on explosive NT church growth and the fact that delaying the second coming allows more time to reach more people. So here we are 2000 years later and all those "saved people" alive at the time that Peter was writing are long since dead. God is still waiting.

=======================

No amount of careful redefinition of terms, or circular logic can rescue 2 Peter 3 from its obvious meaning that does not fit well with some pre-suppositions/preferences/

 

[atpollard]

Nothing in John 10 says that a unbeliever who rejects Christ is "His sheep in His fold" - all are outside who reject Christ but will later be inside that fold if they choose to accept the Gospel.

"I stand at the door and KNOCK if anyone OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.

Read it again:

Look what Jesus says a few chapters later ...​

• [John 10:25-29 NASB]
• Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

“My sheep” vs “not my sheep”​

“Hear” vs “not hear”​

“Believe” vs “not believe”​

“Eternal live” vs “no eternal live”​

“Gift from Father” vs “not a gift” (John 6:44)​

​

"GIFT FROM THE FATHER" not a "choice of man".
Monergism not Synergism.
God chooses men; men do not choose God. (Abram/Abraham, Moses, Saul/Paul)

 

[BobRyan]

Read it again:

Look what Jesus says a few chapters later ...​

• [John 10:25-29 NASB]
• Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Many of whom later choose to reverse their decision and join.

Acts 6:7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

The very ones REJECTING Christ in John 10 -- later do a turn about.

There is no Bible evidence at all - that there were no conversions to Christianity after John 10 among those who at that time rejected Christ.

IT is pretty hard to double down on the idea that the lost who are lost at point-in-time-A do not later become saved at time-B.

 

[atpollard]

Have you considered that there may be a different world than the one mentioned in John 3:16? God loves his sheep (those that hear and believe him, John 10:26-30

Does God love the world in the following scriptures?

John 15:18-19, If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own; but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen ye out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Does this change John 3:16 to somehow now include the word "all"?

While I enjoy a good "bunny trail" as much as anyone, the only point I was arguing about John 3:16 was that the other poster was engaging in eisegesis when they translate John 3:16 to say that "God offers salvation to all men without exception". God may, indeed, "offer salvation to all men without exception" ... (I do not believe that He does, but my opinions are irrelevant) ... but John 3:16 does not say that God does.

One needs to be honest about what the scripture that one quotes actually says.

Concerning "the world" in John 3:16 and John 10:15-18 ... I agree that the word is being used differently. The "world" that hates "you" is likely not the same "world" that God "so loved".

In my opinion, the "world" that God "so loved" - linked with "whosoever believes" - is ...

Rev 5:9 [NKJV]​

And they sang a new song, saying: ​

"You are worthy to take the scroll, ​

And to open its seals; ​

For You were slain, ​

And have redeemed us to God by Your blood ​

Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,​

​

Salvation ... its not just for Jews any more!
[as predicted in the OT]

 

[atpollard]

IT is pretty hard to double down on the idea that the lost who are lost at point-in-time-A do not later become saved at time-B.

Good thing that is not my claim.

I believe John 6:44 and Ephesians 2:1-10 hold true ... The FATHER draws or men do not come at all (now or later) and the FATHER gives life and grace, or men are not saved (now or later).

Monergism, not Synergism.
God saves men.
Men do not first choose God.
[Abram/Abraham, Moses, Saul/Paul]

 

[atpollard]

"I stand at the door and KNOCK if anyone OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.

It is a misapplication of this verse to attempt to apply it to unbelievers.
Revelation 3 was letters written to the Churches ... thus it must be read in context and its context is a letter to believers.

You are engaging in the same sloppy handling of God's word that called me into a discussion of John 3:16 and the word "all".

 

[BobRyan]

"I stand at the door and KNOCK if anyone OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.

Here we see exactly how it works. The person in Rev 3 is alone without Christ within.
Christ it outside knocking - instead blasting down the door and simply informing "I made it in"

It is a misapplication of this verse to attempt to apply it to unbelievers.

The lost "Christless" condition is essentially the same no matter if the person is inside a congregation of Christians or outside it.
(But of course Luke places the Christless person who is inside the church - in a worse condition)

There is no such thing as an unforgiven saved person.
The principle is the same with all lost persons - all those without Christ within.

 

[BobRyan]

Read it again:

Look what Jesus says a few chapters later ...​

• [John 10:25-29 NASB]
• Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Many of whom later choose to reverse their decision and join.

Acts 6:7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

The very ones REJECTING Christ in John 10 -- later do a turn about.

There is no Bible evidence at all - that there were no conversions to Christianity after John 10 among those who at that time rejected Christ.

IT is pretty hard to double down on the idea that the lost who are lost at point-in-time-A do not later become saved at time-B.

Good thing that is not my claim.

I believe John 6:44 and Ephesians 2:1-10 hold true ...

As do I but the point I have made from Acts 6:7 still holds and it is irrefutable that myriads of Christians came into the church -- who were lost people at the time of John 10 and that includes Jews in John 10 that were at the time - rejecting of Christ.

this is irrefutable

The FATHER draws or men do not come at all

True. and in John He draws "ALL MANKIND unto Him" John 12:32

Not merely "the few" of Matt 7.

Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial"
God is "not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2 Peter 3.
"IF ANYONE hears My voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.
"He is the ATONING sacrifice for our sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
"God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14

Acts 10: 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.


John 1: 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

And how is it that those who are NOT "His OWN" come to Christ and receive Him?
"I will draw ALL mankind unto ME" John 12:32 -- the supernatural drawing of all mankind - by God Himself. That enables the choice for all mankind - that depravity disables.

You are going to need an endless amount of "scripture downsizing" to fix the problem you have here.

"God so loved the WORLD that HE gave.." not downsizable to merely "God so loved the FEW of Matt 7 that He gave" --

A very fundamental truth in the Gospels

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Question, if God promised Abraham (let's just forget that God had to bring Abraham out of unbelief to begin with) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky how did he acckmplish his election based on forseen belief?

Why didn't he choose Israel this way? Because God said "You are my chosen people not due to any characteristics or qualifications of your own. You are mine" in fact most of Israel doesn't believe in or follow God. So how can God save a people as vast as the stars in the sky if it is based on forseen belief? Do we honestly think billions of people believe on their own after hearing the gospel? Do we honestly think that there isn't some kind of unconditional election going on here? Since God chose Israel unconditonally? Why did God's method of Election change for the gentiles? Please explain.

The 12 Tribes are whole when the 144,000 and the ones from Eze:37 are together. They are not given in marriage diring the 1,000 years or when they are in New Jerusalem for eternity. (the Gentile Church is in the same state) The rest of the children of Adam and Eve are saved by the Great bWhite Throne event. (Isa:65) They are given in marriage and scattered across the universe to build homes, like Adam and Eve would have has on this earth if it had remained sinless. Each couple is given a star as the start of their new home. Each couple will have 100 children in 100 years. They will come to New Jerusalem for a variety of reasons. The people in NJ will be their shepherds, that makes them, and their children and the other flesh they have dominion over 'their children'. (the other flesh do not know about good and evil so they can never enter New Jerusalem)

In the Eze:37 resurrection, the 12 Tribes numbers are increased by including all the people from the nations in the exodus wars that had children taken that ended up becoming married to some young man from the 12 Tribes.

 

[atpollard]

As do I but the point I have made from Acts 6:7 still holds and it is irrefutable that myriads of Christians came into the church -- who were lost people at the time of John 10 and that includes Jews in John 10 that were at the time - rejecting of Christ.

JOHN 10:29​

 

[atpollard]

"I stand at the door and KNOCK if anyone OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.

Revelation 3:

14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ ”

 

[rturner76]

Why didn't he choose Israel this way?

He actually did considering that the nation of Isreal and the twelve tribes of Judah are his descendants. Oh, I'm pretty Jesus Christ is one of them.

 

[BobRyan]

"I stand at the door and KNOCK if anyone OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.

Here we see exactly how it works. The person in Rev 3 is alone without Christ within.
Christ it outside knocking - instead blasting down the door and simply informing "I made it in"

It is a misapplication of this verse to attempt to apply it to unbelievers.

The lost "Christless" condition is essentially the same no matter if the person is inside a congregation of Christians or outside it.
(But of course Luke places the Christless person who is inside the church - in a worse condition) So also does Rev 3 say they are in a worse state!

There is no such thing as an unforgiven saved person.
The principle is the same with all lost persons - all those without Christ within.

Revelation 3:

14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. ’ ”

Here God speaks of the person without Christ as WORSE than an unbeliever - He says that He would rather they were COLD than in that Christless condition inside the church.

Luke 12 puts the unsaved Christ in a worse hell than the unsaved non-believer.

Yet even so - God reaches out - standing on the OUTSIDE while the unsaved person is ALONE without Christ ... and God waits for that person to choose to open the door.

 

[BobRyan]

Many of whom later choose to reverse their decision and join.

Acts 6:7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

The very ones REJECTING Christ in John 10 -- later do a turn about.

There is no Bible evidence at all - that there were no conversions to Christianity after John 10 among those who at that time rejected Christ.

JOHN 10:29​

Yeah -- it is those guys that we see in Acts 6 -- converted.

That is how evangelism works -- people who were unbelievers two years ago - Christ rejecting unsaved people - become saved this year.