Another view on Jesus.

[Praiseworthy Morningstar]

Jesus, the Apostles, and the Restoration of the Original Teachings​

Introduction
For nearly two millennia, the New Testament has shaped perceptions of Jesus, the apostles, and the early Christian movement. However, a careful and critical examination reveals that many central narratives are historically questionable and ethically problematic. The original teachings of Jesus were deeply rooted in the Mosaic Law, emphasizing justice, moral responsibility, and ethical conduct. Over time, some of these teachings were distorted, leading to power consolidation and moral deviations within early Christian communities.

Jesus and His Ethical Vision
Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish teacher whose life and message were inseparable from the laws and ethical framework of Moses. From a young age, he may have traveled along trade routes, encountering philosophical ideas from other cultures, including Daoism. Through this lens, he understood God as an all-encompassing principle manifest in everything, connecting all people. He taught that all humans are intrinsically “children of God,” and from this premise, he derived ethical rules based on justice, compassion, and responsibility.

The Apostles and the Exercise of Power
The apostles interpreted Jesus’ teachings in ways that appear self-serving. Their narratives regarding his death, resurrection, and miracles served to strengthen their authority within the nascent movement. From a historical-ethical standpoint, these actions can be seen as deliberate or unconscious manipulations, designed to control the narrative and secure their social and religious power.

This distortion of ethical and moral principles allowed them to consolidate authority, often at the expense of the original message. Rules and commands given by Jesus were sometimes disregarded, replaced by constructions that justified the apostles’ authority and ambitions.

Paul: The Corrective Force
Paul, originally a Pharisee, recognized the distortions introduced by the apostles and acted to restore fidelity to the ethical core of Jesus’ message. He adopted a pragmatic approach: firm with the strong, flexible with the weak. The circumcision of Timothy illustrates how Paul applied Mosaic Law strategically, aiming to preserve moral consistency while navigating cultural and social challenges. His letters blend ethical exhortation with tactical engagement, seeking to guide early Christian communities—especially Gentile converts—back to the original teachings.

The Survival of Jesus and the Resurrection Narratives
Historically, the crucifixion of Jesus is widely acknowledged, but his potential survival presents a plausible explanation for inconsistencies in the resurrection accounts. The apostles portrayed him as “dead and risen” to stabilize their authority and consolidate the movement. Accounts of angels, visions, and apparitions can be interpreted as psychological and social constructs rather than literal events, serving to reinforce belief while obscuring the historical reality.

Comparative Perspective: Ethical Stability in Other Religions
When compared to other religious systems, early Christianity shows a unique vulnerability to narrative manipulation and power abuse.

• Islam: Provides clear, consistent ethical laws; believers are recognized at birth; rights and responsibilities are clearly defined, reducing opportunities for internal corruption.
• Judaism: Strict adherence to Mosaic Law prevents arbitrary reinterpretation, preserving ethical integrity.
• Daoism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism: These traditions maintain ethical consistency and rely less on narrative constructs for social cohesion.

The original teachings of Moses, as reflected in Jesus’ moral vision, provide a stable foundation for ethical and social conduct. In contrast, narrative distortions in early Christian texts allowed deviations that undermined this foundation.

Moral and Ethical Implications
Jesus’ teachings were law-abiding, morally coherent, and ethically binding. Deviations introduced by the apostles facilitated moral corruption and social disruption. Paul’s interventions demonstrate that these distortions could be corrected, offering a pathway to restore adherence to original ethical principles.

Returning to the Original Message
For Christians seeking fidelity to Jesus’ ethical teachings, the following principles are essential:

1. Adherence to the Laws of Moses and Jesus: Recognize them as binding, ethical frameworks.
2. Critical examination of narratives: Question interpretations that serve power rather than moral clarity.
3. Reject moral and social distortions: Do not accept actions justified by manipulative narratives.
4. Consider corrections from Paul and later prophets: These provide guidance for restoring ethical consistency.

Conclusion
The true “Good News” lies in returning to ethical responsibility, justice, and moral integrity, beyond manipulation, power consolidation, and narrative distortions. By engaging with the historical reality of Jesus and the ethical foundations of his teachings, Christians can reconnect with a faith that emphasizes justice, compassion, and moral accountability.

Written with ChatGPT.

 

[timothyu]

It was a way of life and not meant to be a religion

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @Praiseworthy Morningstar, first off (since I see that you are a new member), WELCOME TO CF

There are a few questions that I'd like to ask you about what you (& your Ai?) said in your OP but, unfortunately, that will need to happen later on today.

I look forward to talking with you then!

--David

 

[Praiseworthy Morningstar]

It was a way of life and not meant to be a religion

I think that he was just a missunderstood jew. He learned about the Dao and incorporated it into his jewish preachings.

 

[fhansen]

Jesus, the Apostles, and the Restoration of the Original Teachings​

Introduction
For nearly two millennia, the New Testament has shaped perceptions of Jesus, the apostles, and the early Christian movement. However, a careful and critical examination reveals that many central narratives are historically questionable and ethically problematic. The original teachings of Jesus were deeply rooted in the Mosaic Law, emphasizing justice, moral responsibility, and ethical conduct. Over time, some of these teachings were distorted, leading to power consolidation and moral deviations within early Christian communities.

Jesus and His Ethical Vision
Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish teacher whose life and message were inseparable from the laws and ethical framework of Moses. From a young age, he may have traveled along trade routes, encountering philosophical ideas from other cultures, including Daoism. Through this lens, he understood God as an all-encompassing principle manifest in everything, connecting all people. He taught that all humans are intrinsically “children of God,” and from this premise, he derived ethical rules based on justice, compassion, and responsibility.

The Apostles and the Exercise of Power
The apostles interpreted Jesus’ teachings in ways that appear self-serving. Their narratives regarding his death, resurrection, and miracles served to strengthen their authority within the nascent movement. From a historical-ethical standpoint, these actions can be seen as deliberate or unconscious manipulations, designed to control the narrative and secure their social and religious power.

This distortion of ethical and moral principles allowed them to consolidate authority, often at the expense of the original message. Rules and commands given by Jesus were sometimes disregarded, replaced by constructions that justified the apostles’ authority and ambitions.

Paul: The Corrective Force
Paul, originally a Pharisee, recognized the distortions introduced by the apostles and acted to restore fidelity to the ethical core of Jesus’ message. He adopted a pragmatic approach: firm with the strong, flexible with the weak. The circumcision of Timothy illustrates how Paul applied Mosaic Law strategically, aiming to preserve moral consistency while navigating cultural and social challenges. His letters blend ethical exhortation with tactical engagement, seeking to guide early Christian communities—especially Gentile converts—back to the original teachings.

The Survival of Jesus and the Resurrection Narratives
Historically, the crucifixion of Jesus is widely acknowledged, but his potential survival presents a plausible explanation for inconsistencies in the resurrection accounts. The apostles portrayed him as “dead and risen” to stabilize their authority and consolidate the movement. Accounts of angels, visions, and apparitions can be interpreted as psychological and social constructs rather than literal events, serving to reinforce belief while obscuring the historical reality.

Comparative Perspective: Ethical Stability in Other Religions
When compared to other religious systems, early Christianity shows a unique vulnerability to narrative manipulation and power abuse.

• Islam: Provides clear, consistent ethical laws; believers are recognized at birth; rights and responsibilities are clearly defined, reducing opportunities for internal corruption.
• Judaism: Strict adherence to Mosaic Law prevents arbitrary reinterpretation, preserving ethical integrity.
• Daoism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism: These traditions maintain ethical consistency and rely less on narrative constructs for social cohesion.

The original teachings of Moses, as reflected in Jesus’ moral vision, provide a stable foundation for ethical and social conduct. In contrast, narrative distortions in early Christian texts allowed deviations that undermined this foundation.

Moral and Ethical Implications
Jesus’ teachings were law-abiding, morally coherent, and ethically binding. Deviations introduced by the apostles facilitated moral corruption and social disruption. Paul’s interventions demonstrate that these distortions could be corrected, offering a pathway to restore adherence to original ethical principles.

Returning to the Original Message
For Christians seeking fidelity to Jesus’ ethical teachings, the following principles are essential:

1. Adherence to the Laws of Moses and Jesus: Recognize them as binding, ethical frameworks.
2. Critical examination of narratives: Question interpretations that serve power rather than moral clarity.
3. Reject moral and social distortions: Do not accept actions justified by manipulative narratives.
4. Consider corrections from Paul and later prophets: These provide guidance for restoring ethical consistency.

Conclusion
The true “Good News” lies in returning to ethical responsibility, justice, and moral integrity, beyond manipulation, power consolidation, and narrative distortions. By engaging with the historical reality of Jesus and the ethical foundations of his teachings, Christians can reconnect with a faith that emphasizes justice, compassion, and moral accountability.

Written with ChatGPT.

The good news, rooted uniquely in Christianity, is that God, the maker and sustainer of all that exists, is love. Goodness and love lie at the foundation of the universe, IOW, and for us to be healthy, happy, whole and just we must be aligned with that goodness, with that love. And that is God's very purpose for us which is why He sent Love Incarnate to show us what love is, to forgive us of our failure to love while empowering us to love in the way we should, and as He does. The greateast commandments are Christianity's real ethical teachings, IOW, and that ineffable, infinite love of God reflected by and radiating from His creation is what will heal this world and make existence worth living eternally.

 

[Hazelelponi]

@Praiseworthy Morningstar - I understand the weight of these issues, my friend. As a sinner once lost in darkness, I too was far from God, enslaved to sin and deserving of His just wrath.

But by His sovereign grace alone, He drew me out of that darkness into the marvelous light of the knowledge of His Son, Jesus Christ—the promised Messiah foretold throughout the Scriptures.

It is only through Christ's perfect life of obedience, His atoning death on the cross where He bore the penalty for the sins of His covenant people; sins like mine and yours, and His victorious resurrection that I now stand forgiven and reconciled to God.

This is the Gospel: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and rose again on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), granting forgiveness and eternal life to all who repent and believe in Him.

Because of this transforming truth, I want to answer your words carefully, with Scripture as the infallible standard for truth, praying that God might use it to reveal His mercy to you as well.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

For nearly two millennia, the New Testament has shaped perceptions of Jesus, the apostles, and the early Christian movement.

That is because the Scriptures—including the New Testament—are not mere human perceptions but divine revelation, recording for us what Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, truly said and did, together with His apostles and the early church. As 2 Peter 1:20-21 declares, "no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

This revelation exposes our sinfulness and points us to Christ as the only way to forgiveness and entrance into God's covenant of grace and salvation.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

[edit snip,] many central narratives are historically questionable and ethically problematic.

To make such a claim, one would need to demonstrate it from Scripture itself, for the Scriptured is God's breathed-out Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17), profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.

As the highest authority, it judges all human claims, revealing that we are all sinners in need of the Savior it proclaims.

Without Christ, our ethical judgments are flawed by our own rebellion against God, but in Him, we find true righteousness through faith.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

[edit snip,] Over time, some of these teachings were distorted, leading to power consolidation…

That is an assertion without supporting evidence from reliable sources. To claim that Christ’s words were distorted is a weighty accusation—yet the consistent witness of Scripture shows the opposite: the apostles faithfully preserved and proclaimed His teaching, even at the cost of their own lives (Acts 5:40-42).

Their faithfulness underscores the gravity of sin, as they proclaimed repentance and forgiveness in Christ's name alone, inviting sinners like us into the New Covenant where God forgives and renews us by His Spirit.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish teacher whose life and message were inseparable from the laws and ethical framework of Moses.

Jesus indeed taught from the Law and the Prophets, but with divine authority as the eternal Son of God, not as a mere teacher. As the Christ, He revealed the true meaning of Moses and the prophets (Luke 24:27, 44-45), showing that all Scripture pointed to Himself as the fulfillment of God's redemptive plan.

He exposed the heart's sinfulness under the Law, showing that no fallen man under Adam can keep the law perfectly (Romans 3:23), and thus we need His substitutionary death to atone for our transgressions and bring us into covenant with God.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:
From a young age, he may have traveled along trade routes, encountering philosophical ideas from other cultures, including Daoism…

That suggestion has no historical basis in the reliable eyewitness accounts of the Gospels. They testify that Jesus was raised in Nazareth, faithfully fulfilling His duties within Israel under the Old Covenant until the appointed time of His ministry (Luke 2:39-52).

His teaching did not derive from foreign philosophies but from the authority of God the Father Himself (John 7:16; 12:49-50). This divine origin highlights our need for His forgiveness, as human wisdom cannot bridge the chasm created by our sin.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

He taught that all humans are intrinsically “children of God.”

That is not what Jesus taught. In fact, He told some religious leaders, “You are of your father the devil” (John 8:44), revealing that by nature, due to sin, we are children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), alienated from God.

Scripture teaches that we become children of God only through faith in Christ, being born again not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, but of God (John 1:12-13).

This adoption comes through His blood, forgiving our sins and sealing us in the New Covenant by the Holy Spirit.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

[edit snip,] he derived ethical rules based on justice, compassion, and responsibility.

His ethical teaching was rooted not in human reasoning but in God’s holy standards, as revealed in the Spirit of the Law. He expounded the written Law in light of a Holy God to expose sin's depth, going beyond the written letter to the heart: for example, the Law forbids adultery, but Christ teaches that even lustful thoughts are sin deserving judgment (Matthew 5:27-28).

By this, He shows that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), leaving us condemned without His mercy. The Gospel offers this mercy: Christ bore our sins on the cross, so that by faith, we might receive forgiveness and live in obedience under His lordship

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

The apostles interpreted Jesus’ teachings in ways that appear self-serving.

That perception does not align with the historical record preserved in Scripture. The apostles consistently portrayed themselves as weak and sinful, dependent on Christ's strength (2 Corinthians 12:9-10), while willingly suffering loss, imprisonment, and death for His sake (Acts 12:1-3; 2 Corinthians 11:23-28).

Nothing in their lives reflects self-promotion; instead, they proclaimed the crucified and risen Christ as the only hope for sinners to be forgiven and enter God's covenant family.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

[edit snip,] their narratives regarding his death, resurrection, and miracles served to strengthen their authority…

These were not inventions but the testimony of eyewitnesses to God's redemptive acts. Paul reminds us that the risen Christ appeared to more than 500 at once, many still alive to verify claims (1 Corinthians 15:5-8).

Likewise, Luke carefully investigated these accounts from firsthand witnesses, so that we might have certainty of the truth (Luke 1:1-4).

This resurrection vindicates Christ's claims and provides the basis for forgiveness, as He conquered sin and death, inviting repentant sinners into eternal life through faith in Him.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

From a historical-ethical standpoint, these actions can be seen as… manipulations…

That interpretation is speculative and unsupported by evidence. The apostles did not gain earthly power or wealth; rather, they were persecuted, imprisoned, and martyred for their witness (Hebrews 11:35-38).

Their testimony cost them everything worldly, which is hardly the mark of manipulation. It points instead to the reality of Christ's resurrection, the power that forgives sins and transforms lives under the New Covenant.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

Paul… recognized the distortions introduced by the apostles and acted to restore fidelity…

Paul never accused the apostles of distortion; instead, he affirmed the unity of their Gospel message, receiving the right hand of fellowship from Peter, James, and John (Galatians 2:6-9).

He opposed requiring circumcision for salvation because Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant through His death and resurrection, ushering in the New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah... I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor... for they shall all know me... For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Its outward sign is not circumcision but baptism, signifying our union with Christ in His death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4), where sins are washed away by faith.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

His letters blend ethical exhortation with tactical engagement, seeking to guide early Christian communities…

Paul’s letters reveal how Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant shadows and established the New, where God relates to His people not through external rites alone but through inward regeneration by the Spirit.

These covenants are not human inventions but God's sovereign means of redemption, unfolding His eternal plan in Christ (Ephesians 1:3-10; 3:11). Far from correcting distortions, Paul proclaims the Gospel that addresses sin's gravity: we are dead in trespasses, but God makes us alive in Christ, forgiving us through His blood (Ephesians 2:1-10).

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

[edit snip,] his potential survival presents a plausible explanation…

That suggestion denies the heart of the Gospel and contradicts the eyewitness testimony. Scripture testifies that Christ truly died for our sins, was buried, and rose on the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

This was no illusion but the fulfillment of prophecy (Isaiah 53; Psalm 16:10), the foundation of our salvation. Without His actual death and resurrection, there is no atonement for sin, no forgiveness, no hope of covenantal union with God.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

The apostles portrayed him as “dead and risen” to stabilize their authority…

That claim overlooks that the apostles themselves suffered immense loss and death for bearing witness to the resurrection (Acts 7:54-60; 12:2). They had nothing worldly to gain but Christ Himself (Philippians 3:7-8).

Their authority was not self-made but derived from the risen Lord who commissioned them (Matthew 28:18-20), empowering them to proclaim repentance and forgiveness to sinners like us.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

Accounts of angels, visions, and apparitions can be interpreted as psychological…

Alternatively, we can accept them as they present themselves: real supernatural events recorded by faithful witnesses under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16). To dismiss them as mere constructs requires greater faith in human speculation than in God's preserved testimony.

The Scriptures reveal God's interventions in history to redeem sinners, culminating in Christ, who offers forgiveness to all who turn from sin and trust in Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:

When compared to other religious systems, early Christianity shows a unique vulnerability

The profound difference lies in God's covenants. Jeremiah 31:31-34 shows that God Himself sovereignly promised a New Covenant, fulfilled in Christ's life, death, and resurrection—not through human effort or speculation, but by divine grace.

Unlike religions built on human wisdom or laws that cannot change the heart, Christianity rests on God's revealed promise and His accomplished work in history (Hebrews 8:6-13).

In this covenant, sins are fully forgiven, and we are adopted as God's children through faith alone.This, my friend, is the hope we proclaim: the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who lived perfectly under the Law as our representative, died on the cross to pay the full penalty for our sins, rose again victorious over death, reconciling us to God in the New Covenant, and now reigns as Lord.

The gravity of sin is immense; it separates us from a holy God and merits eternal judgment. Yet God, in His mercy, offers forgiveness freely—not by our works, but by faith in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Repent of your sins, believe in Him, and you will have been brought into His everlasting covenant of grace, adopted as a child of God with eternal life. I pray the Lord opens your heart to this truth, as He did mine.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus, the Apostles, and the Restoration of the Original Teachings​

Introduction
For nearly two millennia, the New Testament has shaped perceptions of Jesus, the apostles, and the early Christian movement. However, a careful and critical examination reveals that many central narratives are historically questionable and ethically problematic. The original teachings of Jesus were deeply rooted in the Mosaic Law, emphasizing justice, moral responsibility, and ethical conduct. Over time, some of these teachings were distorted, leading to power consolidation and moral deviations within early Christian communities.

Jesus and His Ethical Vision
Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish teacher whose life and message were inseparable from the laws and ethical framework of Moses. From a young age, he may have traveled along trade routes, encountering philosophical ideas from other cultures, including Daoism. Through this lens, he understood God as an all-encompassing principle manifest in everything, connecting all people. He taught that all humans are intrinsically “children of God,” and from this premise, he derived ethical rules based on justice, compassion, and responsibility.

The Apostles and the Exercise of Power
The apostles interpreted Jesus’ teachings in ways that appear self-serving. Their narratives regarding his death, resurrection, and miracles served to strengthen their authority within the nascent movement. From a historical-ethical standpoint, these actions can be seen as deliberate or unconscious manipulations, designed to control the narrative and secure their social and religious power.

This distortion of ethical and moral principles allowed them to consolidate authority, often at the expense of the original message. Rules and commands given by Jesus were sometimes disregarded, replaced by constructions that justified the apostles’ authority and ambitions.

Paul: The Corrective Force
Paul, originally a Pharisee, recognized the distortions introduced by the apostles and acted to restore fidelity to the ethical core of Jesus’ message. He adopted a pragmatic approach: firm with the strong, flexible with the weak. The circumcision of Timothy illustrates how Paul applied Mosaic Law strategically, aiming to preserve moral consistency while navigating cultural and social challenges. His letters blend ethical exhortation with tactical engagement, seeking to guide early Christian communities—especially Gentile converts—back to the original teachings.

The Survival of Jesus and the Resurrection Narratives
Historically, the crucifixion of Jesus is widely acknowledged, but his potential survival presents a plausible explanation for inconsistencies in the resurrection accounts. The apostles portrayed him as “dead and risen” to stabilize their authority and consolidate the movement. Accounts of angels, visions, and apparitions can be interpreted as psychological and social constructs rather than literal events, serving to reinforce belief while obscuring the historical reality.

Comparative Perspective: Ethical Stability in Other Religions
When compared to other religious systems, early Christianity shows a unique vulnerability to narrative manipulation and power abuse.

• Islam: Provides clear, consistent ethical laws; believers are recognized at birth; rights and responsibilities are clearly defined, reducing opportunities for internal corruption.
• Judaism: Strict adherence to Mosaic Law prevents arbitrary reinterpretation, preserving ethical integrity.
• Daoism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism: These traditions maintain ethical consistency and rely less on narrative constructs for social cohesion.

The original teachings of Moses, as reflected in Jesus’ moral vision, provide a stable foundation for ethical and social conduct. In contrast, narrative distortions in early Christian texts allowed deviations that undermined this foundation.

Moral and Ethical Implications
Jesus’ teachings were law-abiding, morally coherent, and ethically binding. Deviations introduced by the apostles facilitated moral corruption and social disruption. Paul’s interventions demonstrate that these distortions could be corrected, offering a pathway to restore adherence to original ethical principles.

Returning to the Original Message
For Christians seeking fidelity to Jesus’ ethical teachings, the following principles are essential:

1. Adherence to the Laws of Moses and Jesus: Recognize them as binding, ethical frameworks.
2. Critical examination of narratives: Question interpretations that serve power rather than moral clarity.
3. Reject moral and social distortions: Do not accept actions justified by manipulative narratives.
4. Consider corrections from Paul and later prophets: These provide guidance for restoring ethical consistency.

Conclusion
The true “Good News” lies in returning to ethical responsibility, justice, and moral integrity, beyond manipulation, power consolidation, and narrative distortions. By engaging with the historical reality of Jesus and the ethical foundations of his teachings, Christians can reconnect with a faith that emphasizes justice, compassion, and moral accountability.

Written with ChatGPT.

Not in agreement with Jesus (Lk 10:16) regarding the apostles.

So much for ChatGPT.

 

[timothyu]

I think that he was just a missunderstood jew. He learned about the Dao and incorporated it into his jewish preachings

He only said what Hebrew scripture said all along including in the Garden. The Father's will first, over the will of mankind. That is what the Hebrew and Christian scriptures are all about. The religions however, like ALL religions, end up focusing on the messenger, not the message, and all is lost,

 

[timothyu]

, and for us to be healthy, happy, whole and just we must be aligned with that goodness, with that love.

Live it. We are to do as He commanded, Give rather than take.

 

[fhansen]

Give rather than take.

Yes, that's what love does.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Written with ChatGPT.

because AI's cannot be born again.

 

[Lukaris]

Yes, Jesus.Christ gave us commandments to live by faith in Him for our salvation and nowhere else ( John 1:1-18, John 3:16-21, Matthew 19:16-19, John 14:6-9, John 14:15-18, Romans 1:17, Romans 10:9-13, Romans 13:8-10, Ephesians 2:8-10, John 15:1-10 etc.).

 

[Clare73]

Jesus, the Apostles, and the Restoration of the Original Teachings​

Introduction
For nearly two millennia, the New Testament has shaped perceptions of Jesus, the apostles, and the early Christian movement. However, a careful and critical examination reveals that many central narratives are historically questionable and ethically problematic. The original teachings of Jesus were deeply rooted in the Mosaic Law, emphasizing justice, moral responsibility, and ethical conduct. Over time, some of these teachings were distorted, leading to power consolidation and moral deviations within early Christian communities.

Belief in the NT accounts are a matter of faith, which faith is a gift (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3) of the Holy Spirit.
Apart from that gift of faith, no one believes the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.
All else in that regard is sounding brass and tinkling cymbal.

Jesus and His Ethical Vision
Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish teacher whose life and message were inseparable from the laws and ethical framework of Moses. From a young age, he may have traveled along trade routes, encountering philosophical ideas from other cultures, including Daoism. Through this lens, he understood God as an all-encompassing principle manifest in everything, connecting all people. He taught that all humans are intrinsically “children of God,” and from this premise, he derived ethical rules based on justice, compassion, and responsibility.

The Apostles and the Exercise of Power
The apostles interpreted Jesus’ teachings in ways that appear self-serving. Their narratives regarding his death, resurrection, and miracles served to strengthen their authority within the nascent movement. From a historical-ethical standpoint, these actions can be seen as deliberate or unconscious manipulations, designed to control the narrative and secure their social and religious power.

This distortion of ethical and moral principles allowed them to consolidate authority, often at the expense of the original message. Rules and commands given by Jesus were sometimes disregarded, replaced by constructions that justified the apostles’ authority and ambitions.

Paul: The Corrective Force
Paul, originally a Pharisee, recognized the distortions introduced by the apostles and acted to restore fidelity to the ethical core of Jesus’ message. He adopted a pragmatic approach: firm with the strong, flexible with the weak. The circumcision of Timothy illustrates how Paul applied Mosaic Law strategically, aiming to preserve moral consistency while navigating cultural and social challenges. His letters blend ethical exhortation with tactical engagement, seeking to guide early Christian communities—especially Gentile converts—back to the original teachings.

The Survival of Jesus and the Resurrection Narratives
Historically, the crucifixion of Jesus is widely acknowledged, but his potential survival presents a plausible explanation for inconsistencies in the resurrection accounts. The apostles portrayed him as “dead and risen” to stabilize their authority and consolidate the movement. Accounts of angels, visions, and apparitions can be interpreted as psychological and social constructs rather than literal events, serving to reinforce belief while obscuring the historical reality.

Comparative Perspective: Ethical Stability in Other Religions
When compared to other religious systems, early Christianity shows a unique vulnerability to narrative manipulation and power abuse.

• Islam: Provides clear, consistent ethical laws; believers are recognized at birth; rights and responsibilities are clearly defined, reducing opportunities for internal corruption.
• Judaism: Strict adherence to Mosaic Law prevents arbitrary reinterpretation, preserving ethical integrity.
• Daoism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism: These traditions maintain ethical consistency and rely less on narrative constructs for social cohesion.

The original teachings of Moses, as reflected in Jesus’ moral vision, provide a stable foundation for ethical and social conduct. In contrast, narrative distortions in early Christian texts allowed deviations that undermined this foundation.

Jesus, the Apostles, and the Restoration of the Original Teachings​

Introduction
For nearly two millennia, the New Testament has shaped perceptions of Jesus, the apostles, and the early Christian movement. However, a careful and critical examination reveals that many central narratives are historically questionable and ethically problematic. The original teachings of Jesus were deeply rooted in the Mosaic Law, emphasizing justice, moral responsibility, and ethical conduct. Over time, some of these teachings were distorted, leading to power consolidation and moral deviations within early Christian communities.

Jesus and His Ethical Vision
Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish teacher whose life and message were inseparable from the laws and ethical framework of Moses. From a young age, he may have traveled along trade routes, encountering philosophical ideas from other cultures, including Daoism. Through this lens, he understood God as an all-encompassing principle manifest in everything, connecting all people. He taught that all humans are intrinsically “children of God,” and from this premise, he derived ethical rules based on justice, compassion, and responsibility.

The Apostles and the Exercise of Power
The apostles interpreted Jesus’ teachings in ways that appear self-serving. Their narratives regarding his death, resurrection, and miracles served to strengthen their authority within the nascent movement. From a historical-ethical standpoint, these actions can be seen as deliberate or unconscious manipulations, designed to control the narrative and secure their social and religious power.

This distortion of ethical and moral principles allowed them to consolidate authority, often at the expense of the original message. Rules and commands given by Jesus were sometimes disregarded, replaced by constructions that justified the apostles’ authority and ambitions.

Paul: The Corrective Force
Paul, originally a Pharisee, recognized the distortions introduced by the apostles and acted to restore fidelity to the ethical core of Jesus’ message. He adopted a pragmatic approach: firm with the strong, flexible with the weak. The circumcision of Timothy illustrates how Paul applied Mosaic Law strategically, aiming to preserve moral consistency while navigating cultural and social challenges. His letters blend ethical exhortation with tactical engagement, seeking to guide early Christian communities—especially Gentile converts—back to the original teachings.

The Survival of Jesus and the Resurrection Narratives
Historically, the crucifixion of Jesus is widely acknowledged, but his potential survival presents a plausible explanation for inconsistencies in the resurrection accounts. The apostles portrayed him as “dead and risen” to stabilize their authority and consolidate the movement. Accounts of angels, visions, and apparitions can be interpreted as psychological and social constructs rather than literal events, serving to reinforce belief while obscuring the historical reality.

Comparative Perspective: Ethical Stability in Other Religions
When compared to other religious systems, early Christianity shows a unique vulnerability to narrative manipulation and power abuse.

• Islam: Provides clear, consistent ethical laws; believers are recognized at birth; rights and responsibilities are clearly defined, reducing opportunities for internal corruption.
• Judaism: Strict adherence to Mosaic Law prevents arbitrary reinterpretation, preserving ethical integrity.
• Daoism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism: These traditions maintain ethical consistency and rely less on narrative constructs for social cohesion.

The original teachings of Moses, as reflected in Jesus’ moral vision, provide a stable foundation for ethical and social conduct. In contrast, narrative distortions in early Christian texts allowed deviations that undermined this foundation.

Moral and Ethical Implications
Jesus’ teachings were law-abiding, morally coherent, and ethically binding. Deviations introduced by the apostles facilitated moral corruption and social disruption. Paul’s interventions demonstrate that these distortions could be corrected, offering a pathway to restore adherence to original ethical principles.

Returning to the Original Message
For Christians seeking fidelity to Jesus’ ethical teachings, the following principles are essential:

1. Adherence to the Laws of Moses and Jesus: Recognize them as binding, ethical frameworks.
2. Critical examination of narratives: Question interpretations that serve power rather than moral clarity.
3. Reject moral and social distortions: Do not accept actions justified by manipulative narratives.
4. Consider corrections from Paul and later prophets: These provide guidance for restoring ethical consistency.

Conclusion
The true “Good News” lies in returning to ethical responsibility, justice, and moral integrity, beyond manipulation, power consolidation, and narrative distortions. By engaging with the historical reality of Jesus and the ethical foundations of his teachings, Christians can reconnect with a faith that emphasizes justice, compassion, and moral accountability.

Written with ChatGPT.

Moral and Ethical Implications
Jesus’ teachings were law-abiding, morally coherent, and ethically binding. Deviations introduced by the apostles facilitated moral corruption and social disruption. Paul’s interventions demonstrate that these distortions could be corrected, offering a pathway to restore adherence to original ethical principles.

Returning to the Original Message
For Christians seeking fidelity to Jesus’ ethical teachings, the following principles are essential:

1. Adherence to the Laws of Moses and Jesus: Recognize them as binding, ethical frameworks.
2. Critical examination of narratives: Question interpretations that serve power rather than moral clarity.
3. Reject moral and social distortions: Do not accept actions justified by manipulative narratives.
4. Consider corrections from Paul and later prophets: These provide guidance for restoring ethical consistency.

Conclusion
The true “Good News” lies in returning to ethical responsibility, justice, and moral integrity, beyond manipulation, power consolidation, and narrative distortions. By engaging with the historical reality of Jesus and the ethical foundations of his teachings, Christians can reconnect with a faith that emphasizes justice, compassion, and moral accountability.

Written with ChatGPT.

 

[timothyu]

Belief in the NT accounts are a matter of faith, which faith is a gift (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3) of the Holy Spirit.
Apart from that gift of faith, no one believes the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.

Yes, belief in the NT accounts, not the religion that claims to represent them.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, belief in the NT accounts, not the religion that claims to represent them.

And who is the judge of that?

 

[timothyu]

And who is the judge of that?

Jesus made it pretty clear in dealing with religion in His day. Religion was His adversary. The self-serving ways of mankind never change in spite of all the commandments of God.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus made it pretty clear in dealing with religion in His day. Religion was His adversary. The self-serving ways of mankind never change in spite of all the commandments of God.

Non-responsive. . .

 

[Praiseworthy Morningstar]

The good news, rooted uniquely in Christianity, is that God, the maker and sustainer of all that exists, is love. Goodness and love lie at the foundation of the universe, IOW, and for us to be healthy, happy, whole and just we must be aligned with that goodness, with that love. And that is God's very purpose for us which is why He sent Love Incarnate to show us what love is, to forgive us of our failure to love while empowering us to love in the way we should, and as He does. The greateast commandments are Christianity's real ethical teachings, IOW, and that ineffable, infinite love of God reflected by and radiating from His creation is what will heal this world and make existence worth living eternally.

I do not think that good is a feeling. The Almighty can not be gasp from a human perspective.

 

[fhansen]

I do not think that good is a feeling. The Almighty can not be gasp from a human perspective.

Feelings had nothing to do with my point, really, since love can't be reduced to feelings only-and love is nonethelss real. But I'll also say that we dismiss feelings, emotions too easily; Jesus wasn't a stoic. We know such things as love, anger, sorrow, empathy, moral outrage, etc, viscerally, in a direct manner as well as by their external effects. And to know God is to experience Him, ultimately, a gift of grace at the end of the day.

 

[Praiseworthy Morningstar]

@Praiseworthy Morningstar - I understand the weight of these issues, my friend. As a sinner once lost in darkness, I too was far from God, enslaved to sin and deserving of His just wrath.

But by His sovereign grace alone, He drew me out of that darkness into the marvelous light of the knowledge of His Son, Jesus Christ—the promised Messiah foretold throughout the Scriptures.

It is only through Christ's perfect life of obedience, His atoning death on the cross where He bore the penalty for the sins of His covenant people; sins like mine and yours, and His victorious resurrection that I now stand forgiven and reconciled to God.

This is the Gospel: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and rose again on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), granting forgiveness and eternal life to all who repent and believe in Him.

Because of this transforming truth, I want to answer your words carefully, with Scripture as the infallible standard for truth, praying that God might use it to reveal His mercy to you as well.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


That is because the Scriptures—including the New Testament—are not mere human perceptions but divine revelation, recording for us what Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, truly said and did, together with His apostles and the early church. As 2 Peter 1:20-21 declares, "no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

This revelation exposes our sinfulness and points us to Christ as the only way to forgiveness and entrance into God's covenant of grace and salvation.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


To make such a claim, one would need to demonstrate it from Scripture itself, for the Scriptured is God's breathed-out Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17), profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.

As the highest authority, it judges all human claims, revealing that we are all sinners in need of the Savior it proclaims.

Without Christ, our ethical judgments are flawed by our own rebellion against God, but in Him, we find true righteousness through faith.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:



That is an assertion without supporting evidence from reliable sources. To claim that Christ’s words were distorted is a weighty accusation—yet the consistent witness of Scripture shows the opposite: the apostles faithfully preserved and proclaimed His teaching, even at the cost of their own lives (Acts 5:40-42).

Their faithfulness underscores the gravity of sin, as they proclaimed repentance and forgiveness in Christ's name alone, inviting sinners like us into the New Covenant where God forgives and renews us by His Spirit.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


Jesus indeed taught from the Law and the Prophets, but with divine authority as the eternal Son of God, not as a mere teacher. As the Christ, He revealed the true meaning of Moses and the prophets (Luke 24:27, 44-45), showing that all Scripture pointed to Himself as the fulfillment of God's redemptive plan.

He exposed the heart's sinfulness under the Law, showing that no fallen man under Adam can keep the law perfectly (Romans 3:23), and thus we need His substitutionary death to atone for our transgressions and bring us into covenant with God.



That suggestion has no historical basis in the reliable eyewitness accounts of the Gospels. They testify that Jesus was raised in Nazareth, faithfully fulfilling His duties within Israel under the Old Covenant until the appointed time of His ministry (Luke 2:39-52).

His teaching did not derive from foreign philosophies but from the authority of God the Father Himself (John 7:16; 12:49-50). This divine origin highlights our need for His forgiveness, as human wisdom cannot bridge the chasm created by our sin.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


That is not what Jesus taught. In fact, He told some religious leaders, “You are of your father the devil” (John 8:44), revealing that by nature, due to sin, we are children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), alienated from God.

Scripture teaches that we become children of God only through faith in Christ, being born again not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, but of God (John 1:12-13).

This adoption comes through His blood, forgiving our sins and sealing us in the New Covenant by the Holy Spirit.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


His ethical teaching was rooted not in human reasoning but in God’s holy standards, as revealed in the Spirit of the Law. He expounded the written Law in light of a Holy God to expose sin's depth, going beyond the written letter to the heart: for example, the Law forbids adultery, but Christ teaches that even lustful thoughts are sin deserving judgment (Matthew 5:27-28).

By this, He shows that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), leaving us condemned without His mercy. The Gospel offers this mercy: Christ bore our sins on the cross, so that by faith, we might receive forgiveness and live in obedience under His lordship

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


That perception does not align with the historical record preserved in Scripture. The apostles consistently portrayed themselves as weak and sinful, dependent on Christ's strength (2 Corinthians 12:9-10), while willingly suffering loss, imprisonment, and death for His sake (Acts 12:1-3; 2 Corinthians 11:23-28).

Nothing in their lives reflects self-promotion; instead, they proclaimed the crucified and risen Christ as the only hope for sinners to be forgiven and enter God's covenant family.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


These were not inventions but the testimony of eyewitnesses to God's redemptive acts. Paul reminds us that the risen Christ appeared to more than 500 at once, many still alive to verify claims (1 Corinthians 15:5-8).

Likewise, Luke carefully investigated these accounts from firsthand witnesses, so that we might have certainty of the truth (Luke 1:1-4).

This resurrection vindicates Christ's claims and provides the basis for forgiveness, as He conquered sin and death, inviting repentant sinners into eternal life through faith in Him.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:



That interpretation is speculative and unsupported by evidence. The apostles did not gain earthly power or wealth; rather, they were persecuted, imprisoned, and martyred for their witness (Hebrews 11:35-38).

Their testimony cost them everything worldly, which is hardly the mark of manipulation. It points instead to the reality of Christ's resurrection, the power that forgives sins and transforms lives under the New Covenant.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:



Paul never accused the apostles of distortion; instead, he affirmed the unity of their Gospel message, receiving the right hand of fellowship from Peter, James, and John (Galatians 2:6-9).

He opposed requiring circumcision for salvation because Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant through His death and resurrection, ushering in the New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah... I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor... for they shall all know me... For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Its outward sign is not circumcision but baptism, signifying our union with Christ in His death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4), where sins are washed away by faith.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


Paul’s letters reveal how Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant shadows and established the New, where God relates to His people not through external rites alone but through inward regeneration by the Spirit.

These covenants are not human inventions but God's sovereign means of redemption, unfolding His eternal plan in Christ (Ephesians 1:3-10; 3:11). Far from correcting distortions, Paul proclaims the Gospel that addresses sin's gravity: we are dead in trespasses, but God makes us alive in Christ, forgiving us through His blood (Ephesians 2:1-10).

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


That suggestion denies the heart of the Gospel and contradicts the eyewitness testimony. Scripture testifies that Christ truly died for our sins, was buried, and rose on the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

This was no illusion but the fulfillment of prophecy (Isaiah 53; Psalm 16:10), the foundation of our salvation. Without His actual death and resurrection, there is no atonement for sin, no forgiveness, no hope of covenantal union with God.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


That claim overlooks that the apostles themselves suffered immense loss and death for bearing witness to the resurrection (Acts 7:54-60; 12:2). They had nothing worldly to gain but Christ Himself (Philippians 3:7-8).

Their authority was not self-made but derived from the risen Lord who commissioned them (Matthew 28:18-20), empowering them to proclaim repentance and forgiveness to sinners like us.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


Alternatively, we can accept them as they present themselves: real supernatural events recorded by faithful witnesses under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16). To dismiss them as mere constructs requires greater faith in human speculation than in God's preserved testimony.

The Scriptures reveal God's interventions in history to redeem sinners, culminating in Christ, who offers forgiveness to all who turn from sin and trust in Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Praiseworthy Morningstar wrote:


The profound difference lies in God's covenants. Jeremiah 31:31-34 shows that God Himself sovereignly promised a New Covenant, fulfilled in Christ's life, death, and resurrection—not through human effort or speculation, but by divine grace.

Unlike religions built on human wisdom or laws that cannot change the heart, Christianity rests on God's revealed promise and His accomplished work in history (Hebrews 8:6-13).

In this covenant, sins are fully forgiven, and we are adopted as God's children through faith alone.This, my friend, is the hope we proclaim: the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who lived perfectly under the Law as our representative, died on the cross to pay the full penalty for our sins, rose again victorious over death, reconciling us to God in the New Covenant, and now reigns as Lord.

The gravity of sin is immense; it separates us from a holy God and merits eternal judgment. Yet God, in His mercy, offers forgiveness freely—not by our works, but by faith in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Repent of your sins, believe in Him, and you will have been brought into His everlasting covenant of grace, adopted as a child of God with eternal life. I pray the Lord opens your heart to this truth, as He did mine.

@Hazelelponi
Thank you for your reply. First I have to reject your claim that I am far from God. We do just look at this from different perspectives because I am a Muslim and you are a Christ. I do appreciate that you do acknowledge that it was God who punished you. I do see myself as a God-fearing man.

To indruduce my thought it is necesarry to undestand that Islam is a Abrahamic religion, with strong roots in Moses and the incorporation of Jesus revelation of the coming final judgment.
It does have more loose rules. For example: Women do have the right to divorce ; No stoning. There are a few other rules about inheritance and more. This could be explained by hoping for his forgiveness.

In Islam it is not necessary or true that Jesus died for our sin or is the son to recieve forrgivness and mercy. Instead the almighty, and all knowing mercyfull God grants His forgiveness and mercy to whom ever he wants.

Your claims of the New Testament being an unaltered divine Scripture could be made for the Quran but not for the New Testament. The NT is written by humans that had contact with a Prophet that was in touch with the divine. The Quran was fully written down with testimonys to every Sura, but the NT is questionable. That the true story is written in a scripture/book/stone in the sky/heaven is part of my believe.

This rebelion thing is highly quenstionable and a rebelion against the almighty God does not make any sense. With the coming of Muhammad that rebelion should have ended.

Unfortunately I will not answer to all of your Questions. The new book is OUT since nearly 1500 years.

May peace be upon you.