Another question about icons and statuary

[“Paisios”]

So I have heard a defense of the use of icons put forward that they somewhat continue the use of the images used on the Ark of the Covenant and in the Tabernacle and Temples. These seem from the Old Testament to have been metal castings/carvings, more similar to statues than the painted icons in use today.

And yet, it seems that the Orthodox condemn Roman Catholic statuary used in Western worship. Why does Orthodoxy approve of painted icons, but not statuary icons?

Is this condemnation from the fact that they are statues? Is it the theology behind them that is wrong (from an Orthodox perspective)? Is it the images portrayed by the statues? Is it because the story told by a painted icon is deeper and different than that found in a statue?

(As always, I am asking in genuine desire for teaching, not to be contrary, argumentative or debating...)

(Edited to fix a grammatical error)

 

[Chris V++]

Looking forward to the discussion. Is it possible Icons (at least in the way they are inspired and their potential for facilitating miracles) were possibly rooted in Jewish kabbalah?

 

[Barney2.0]

Eastern Orthodox don’t condemn Roman Catholic statuary, it is only condemned when the Roman Catholics attempted to latinize Eastern Churches to also use statues in worship. Statues are mainly a western tradition, its mostly foreign to Eastern worship and tradition.

 

[“Paisios”]

Eastern Orthodox don’t condemn Roman Catholic statuary, it is only condemned when the Roman Catholics attempted to latinize Eastern Churches to also use statues in worship. Statues are mainly a western tradition, its mostly foreign to Eastern worship and tradition.

Thank you for the correction and the information.

Do you know any of the history around why it became a Western tradition and was unknown in the East?

 

[ArmyMatt]

we don't condemn statues, they just never developed as a use. but we do have them on holy sites outside of Churches, small ones in prayer corners, etc.

 

[Barney2.0]

we don't condemn statues, they just never developed as a use. but we do have them on holy sites outside of Churches, small ones in prayer corners, etc.

I do use small statues, I have a statue of the Virgin Mary that I keep next to icons of her.

 

[“Paisios”]

we don't condemn statues, they just never developed as a use. but we do have them on holy sites outside of Churches, small ones in prayer corners, etc.

Thank you, Father, (and @Al Masihi) for the information. And thank you for the correction, as well. I am not sure why I thought the Orthodox Church condemned statues...maybe the context was a specific statue, but I don’t now remember my source.

Do you know why their use never developed in the East?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you, Father, (and @Al Masihi) for the information. And thank you for the correction, as well. I am not sure why I thought the Orthodox Church condemned statues...maybe the context was a specific statue, but I don’t now remember my source.

Do you know why their use never developed in the East?

not sure, because they did have them even in the Byzantine Empire. Constantinople had statues of saints through her streets, again, they were just outside of Churches.

 

[“Paisios”]

not sure, because they did have them even in the Byzantine Empire. Constantinople had statues of saints through her streets, again, they were just outside of Churches.

Thank you, Father.

It’s interesting how the use of the artistic mediums grew so differently in the East and the West.

 

[AMM]

There are some examples of contemporary theologians (re)starting to promote the use statuary, like Jonathan Pageau and Aidan Hart.

Pageau Carvings
Orthodox Arts Journal
Carvings - Aidan Hart Sacred Icons

 

[“Paisios”]

There are some examples of contemporary theologians (re)starting to promote the use statuary, like Jonathan Pageau and Aidan Hart.

Pageau Carvings
Orthodox Arts Journal
Carvings - Aidan Hart Sacred Icons

Interesting. Thanks for that.

 

[prodromos]

Part of the problem with statues is that they are not able to transcend the physical without considerable difficulty. Any attempt to depict the transcendent will, by its very nature, be external to the statue which is easily misinterpreted. An example I often give is the development of the "halo" in Western religious art. Prior to and up to the schism, frescos in Western Churches were virtually the same as in the East, but after the schism the use of statues started to impact on how they viewed the photostefano. Because the statues used a physical disk fixed behind the head of the statue, their two dimensional artwork started to reflect that view. In icons depicting many saints together, the physical disk of one saint would obscure the face of another, and their solution to this was to move the disk from behind their heads to above their heads. That gold disk progressed to Rafael's depiction of a transparent disc where only the edge was visible, so now in the West it is commonly depicted as a gold ring hovering above their head. This is completely divorced from the Orthodox depiction of divine light, radiating from their face like Moses when he descended from the mountain.

 

[“Paisios”]

Part of the problem with statues is that they are not able to transcend the physical without considerable difficulty. Any attempt to depict the transcendent will, by its very nature, be external to the statue which is easily misinterpreted. An example I often give is the development of the "halo" in Western religious art. Prior to and up to the schism, frescos in Western Churches were virtually the same as in the East, but after the schism the use of statues started to impact on how they viewed the photostefano. Because the statues used a physical disk fixed behind the head of the statue, their two dimensional artwork started to reflect that view. In icons depicting many saints together, the physical disk of one saint would obscure the face of another, and their solution to this was to move the disk from behind their heads to above their heads. That gold disk progressed to Rafael's depiction of a transparent disc where only the edge was visible, so now in the West it is commonly depicted as a gold ring hovering above their head. This is completely divorced from the Orthodox depiction of divine light, radiating from their face like Moses when he descended from the mountain.
View attachment 242269

Thank you- that is very informative!

 

[AMM]

Part of the problem with statues is that they are not able to transcend the physical without considerable difficulty. Any attempt to depict the transcendent will, by its very nature, be external to the statue which is easily misinterpreted. An example I often give is the development of the "halo" in Western religious art. Prior to and up to the schism, frescos in Western Churches were virtually the same as in the East, but after the schism the use of statues started to impact on how they viewed the photostefano. Because the statues used a physical disk fixed behind the head of the statue, their two dimensional artwork started to reflect that view. In icons depicting many saints together, the physical disk of one saint would obscure the face of another, and their solution to this was to move the disk from behind their heads to above their heads. That gold disk progressed to Rafael's depiction of a transparent disc where only the edge was visible, so now in the West it is commonly depicted as a gold ring hovering above their head. This is completely divorced from the Orthodox depiction of divine light, radiating from their face like Moses when he descended from the mountain.

That's fascinating - I'd never thought about that. I don't think I'd ever though about what a halo even represented, besides a vague notion of holiness, so this is informative on a number of levels.

 

[Chris V++]

When does an icon cease to be just a painting or portrait and becomes venerated as an icon? Does it happen after it's prayed over and blessed at the altar? (Using below definitions for icon and venerated) Thanks for answering and being patient.

dictionary definition icon
a painting of Jesus Christ or another holy figure, typically in a traditional style on wood, venerated and used as an aid to devotion in the Byzantine and other Eastern Churches.

definition venerate
regard highly, reverence, worship, hallow, hold sacred, exalt, vaunt, adore, honor, respect, esteem More

 

[~Anastasia~]

When does an icon cease to be just a painting or portrait and becomes venerated as an icon? Does it happen after it's prayed over and blessed at the altar? (Using below definitions for icon and venerated) Thanks for answering and being patient.

dictionary definition icon
a painting of Jesus Christ or another holy figure, typically in a traditional style on wood, venerated and used as an aid to devotion in the Byzantine and other Eastern Churches.

definition venerate
regard highly, reverence, worship, hallow, hold sacred, exalt, vaunt, adore, honor, respect, esteem More

Well of course an icon is NEVER worshipped, and that meaning of adore, etc. would be out of line.

I'll let someone else answer with the technicalities, but I suspect it's in the intent. If for example an iconographer was creating an icon and it was left unfinished - especially if events surrounding the reason had to do with the faith - I could well imagine it possibly could be blessed and venerated.

The veneration is to the one who is depicted anyway, not to the wood and paint. They are "windows into heaven" ... so I am thinking - what if you saw someone you loved and honored SO MUCH through a window, but you couldn't go outside to them? You might blow them a kiss through the window. The window itself is nothing except an opening through which you can glimpse them. The kiss is inspired by the person you see, not the glass.

 

[ArmyMatt]

When does an icon cease to be just a painting or portrait and becomes venerated as an icon? Does it happen after it's prayed over and blessed at the altar? (Using below definitions for icon and venerated) Thanks for answering and being patient.

dictionary definition icon
a painting of Jesus Christ or another holy figure, typically in a traditional style on wood, venerated and used as an aid to devotion in the Byzantine and other Eastern Churches.

definition venerate
regard highly, reverence, worship, hallow, hold sacred, exalt, vaunt, adore, honor, respect, esteem More

you begin the icon I believe with prayer, so there is never a time it is not an icon, I think.