Another interesting definition. Death.

[Mountainmike]

That doesn’t happen though.

You mean you think it doesn’t, because it’s not consistent with your world view.

Meanwhile read the books eg
bellg, “ near death in ICU”
Rivas et al “ the self does not die”
Van lommel “ consciousness beyond life”
( plus many others)

All books are evidence from medics at the sharp end.
You will be forced to concede it does happen.
Self does not die is entirely veridical ( ie verified) experience where details that the patient cannot have known from brain based consciousness are verified mainly by the medics involved. Indeed the patients were not conscious medically- described as clinically dead/ flat line ECG.

Neurologists increasingly accept the mind cannot just be a function of brain, for other reasons too, not just NDE.
No possibility of other explanation than consciousness beyond brain.

Van lommels longitudinal studies as published in lancet confirm it.

 

[Larniavc]

You mean you think it doesn’t, because it’s not consistent with your world view.

It is inconsistent with the evidence. My world view could be that the universe was burped up by a turtle and it would not change the evidence.

 

[Mountainmike]

It is inconsistent with the evidence. My world view could be that the universe was burped up by a turtle and it would not change the evidence.

Read the evidence first. You clearly haven’t.

 

[NxNW]

Read the evidence first. You clearly haven’t.

I've read the evidence, and when properly compared with the facts, it doesn't hold up.

 

[Mountainmike]

I've read the evidence, and when properly compared with the facts, it doesn't hold up.

You clearly haven’t.

 

[Derf]

That doesn’t happen though.

You're calling a bunch of people liars with that statement.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You're calling a bunch of people liars with that statement.

People can be mistaken without being liars. Having said that, it would not surprise me if some are lying, human nature being what it is and all...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

A definition of life is important to define abiogenesis.

Another fascinating definition is death.

Clinical Death occurs when circulation and breathing stop.

Within a minute brain function stops.
And for all those that presume consciousness is a process of the brain.
Consciousness must stop by definition.

Despite modern medicine most who have a cardiac arrest die, unless they are close enough to a team who have defibrillators and know how to use them. They are brought back to life before irreparable damage is done.

There is a period in which to restore circulation for life to resume normally. Irreversible damage is done within 3-5 minutes. And very few can be brought back after that.Whilst attempts to keep some circulation going manually help extend this period, it is very low pressure and not enough to restore consciousness. Consciousness only returns after defibrillation resumes normal blood pumping. Return to measurable brain function can take time. Periods of unconsciousness can often follow ressusitation from cardiac arrest.


So so called "Near death experiences" are in clinical terms "actual death experiences"
Which is why those who can describe exact details of places , conversations and details of procedures and remote places they cannot have known or guessed are so interesting for the debate on "what is consciousness".

In this unconscious state one patient "howard" witnessed the unusual details of the ressusitation , procedures, which he cannot have known , described from a view point of the ceiling, the clothing worn by staff, and then as he floated up he described accurately a room above in the hospital off limits to anyone but staff being trained, with manikins around a central set of works tations used to train ressucitation procedures. He cannot have guessed it.

Clinically he was dead. He was clinically unconscious, whilst his experience show he was actually conscious. And his consciousness was of a remote place from his body.


The first cells to suffer irreversible damage are in the brain. It needs a lot of energy just to survive. Turns out that cells can enter a "pilot light" state. Not operating but lower energy. That is what happens during the down time, but reversibility only lasts for minutes in the brain.

Turns out The period in which can be extended by lowering body temperature dramatically, so some surgery (like cranial aneurisms) are done with the body temperature lowered dramatically. Blood is drained from the head. And just to make doubly sure, clickers are put in the patients ears with ECG monitoring any response.

One of the most famous NDE of Pam Reynolds - occured in this state.
She described with taped eyes the tools used to open her skull which she described as an electric toothbrush. turns out that is exactly what it looked like. She can never have seen it previously. Also the conversation by the vascula surgeon they could not find a sufficient blood vessel in one leg so wen to the other. She was surprised that they even needed blood vessels (actually to drain her blood, to work on the aneurism in her head)
There is not a chance in hell that her brain was active to record the conscious experience, and even if she had, she would not have been able to see what she described accurately.

This is one of hundreds of veridical NDE. That is conscious experience whose details can be validated by reference to the medics. Whilst clinically dead.


As I have said on other threads. Increasingly many neurologists and AE doctors no longer believe the hypothesis that consciousness is a product of brain chemistry. It doesnt fit the evidence. The mind controls the brain, even the deveopment of it. The brain is not the mind.

Read
Bellg "near death in ICU" as a reasonable introduction to the types of experience she has witnessed in AE
The "self does not die" Rivas - for analysis of a lot of veridical (ie verified ) experiences.
Van Lommel "conscioussness beyond life "for technical details of the science of brain process, neurologists views on consciousness, cardiac arrest and lateral studies on NDE

These are not quacks. They are real ICU , Cardiologist and neuro doctors speaking about NDE. They concluded that the hyptothesis that consciousness is a brain process is false. The evidence does not support it. . Van lommel has published his studies in the lancet several times.

As before, validating such reports is problematic.

Also, cortical evoked potentials, i.e. brain activity in the cortex, can be obtained for several minutes after systemic circulation has ceased.

 

[Derf]

People can be mistaken without being liars. Having said that, it would not surprise me if some are lying, human nature being what it is and all...

The reports from the patients have been verified in some cases by the staff or family members, supposedly. That's a large group to be mistaken, or worse, to be lying.

As before, validating such reports is problematic.

Also, cortical evoked potentials, i.e. brain activity in the cortex, can be obtained for several minutes after systemic circulation has ceased.

So now you're saying the effect is real, just caused by something else?

 

[Larniavc]

Read the evidence first. You clearly haven’t.

Yeah, I have. Near Death Experience enthusiasts are all either deluded or liars.

 

[Mountainmike]

Yeah, I have. Near Death Experience enthusiasts are all either deluded or liars.

No you haven’t.
By the very nature of your comment, it shows you have neither studied the witnesses nor the evidence. Its not “ enthudiasts” commenting.

You do illustrate the problem.
A priori sceptics discount whatever does not match their philosophy by ritual denial regardless of evidence.

I prefer the evidence of the numerous ED doctors, cardiologists and surgeons who were ACTUALLY there , studied the evidence, corroborated the stories , and performed the studies, to the libellous assumptions of someone was not there, clearly has not researched it and prefers his opinion to the qualified medics.

 

[Mountainmike]

People can be mistaken without being liars. Having said that, it would not surprise me if some are lying, human nature being what it is and all...

Meanwhile , the veridical experiences are corroborated by independent evidence. So the experiencer was not lying.
Residual consciousness does not account for a remote experience, and it provably did not exist in the flat line ECG cases whose reflexes had gone , and pupils were blown. In one case no blood in head at all.

ed doctors such as bellg, and cardiologist van lommel explain all the medical limits of consciousness.

Tell me how does someone with taped eyes, and in some cases blind from birth describe what they saw , which was corroborated at a place which was out of sight?

You use all the usual generalisations which are completely inappropriate to these cases.

For the first time, study them , THEN comment, is a good order!
Explain how your random guesswork applies in the cases the attending medics studied in detail. Tell us why the medics were wrong.

 

[Larniavc]

No you haven’t.
By the very nature of your comment, it shows you have neither studied the witnesses nor the evidence. Its not “ enthudiasts” commenting.

You do illustrate the problem.
A priori sceptics discount whatever does not match their philosophy by ritual denial regardless of evidence.

I prefer the evidence of the numerous ED doctors, cardiologists and surgeons who were ACTUALLY there , studied the evidence, corroborated the stories , and performed the studies, to the libellous assumptions of someone was not there, clearly has not researched it and prefers his opinion to the qualified medics.

Let’s see this evidence, then?

 

[NxNW]

No you haven’t.
By the very nature of your comment, it shows you have neither studied the witnesses nor the evidence. Its not “ enthudiasts” commenting.

I have read it extensively, and the facts refute the claims.

 

[Derf]

I have read it extensively, and the facts refute the claims.

Can you explain, maybe by giving an example or two where such "facts" refute such "claims"?

 

[NxNW]

Can you explain, maybe by giving an example or two where such "facts" refute such "claims"?

This links to a PDF article discussing NDEs in general and debunking a famous claim, as well as a bibliography.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...5033/p27.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0NGEBDfPlD2DJ7uIyDESRF

 

[Mountainmike]

I have read it extensively, and the facts refute the claims.

They are not MYclaims. they are those of ED doctors , cardiologists and neurologists - People who were there, studied the evidence and could not find explanation other than consciousness away from the brain. If you HAD read them your reply would be far more nuanced, because nobody has any answer to how, even the worst sceptical doctors have no answer that accounts for the cases. So how can you?

Tell me. in the reynolds case - how do you explain her observations, and why do you, who is unqualified to comment and wasnt there , saw none of the blank ECG traces, how do you dare to overrule the medics who understood the case? The arrogance of kneejerk sceptics astounds me.

 

[Mountainmike]

Let’s see this evidence, then?

I gave you the name of three books.
Read them.
Lauren Bellg near death in ICU ilustrates the problem of impossible cases to explain by clinical and medical understanding. Why the "obvious" explanations fail.

"the self does not die" is a book devoted to veridical cases where a second party can verify details that the "experiencer" cannot have known from their vantage point even if they were conscious which many were provably not.

Then van lommel as a practising cardiologist at the sharp end, did the biggest longitudinal study and goes in depth to all the potential explanations and how clinical explanations, treatment differences and pharmacology and neurology fail to explain them.

These are not quacks. They are experienced medics.
And the number is growing ever since Moody / Greysson opened the field up 40 years ago. Whilst there are many long past history cases, even medieaval, the increase in them is easily explained by the fact cardiac arrest is no longer completely fatal because of defibrrilation etc. Some can be brought back to life although not as many as you think..

Read them. There are many other books.

 

[Larniavc]

I gave you the name of three books.
Read them.
Lauren Bellg near death in ICU ilustrates the problem of impossible cases to explain by clinical and medical understanding. Why the "obvious" explanations fail.

"the self does not die" is a book devoted to veridical cases where a second party can verify details that the "experiencer" cannot have known from their vantage point even if they were conscious which many were provably not.

Then van lommel as a practising cardiologist at the sharp end, did the biggest longitudinal study and goes in depth to all the potential explanations and how clinical explanations, treatment differences and pharmacology and neurology fail to explain them.

These are not quacks. They are experienced medics.
And the number is growing ever since Moody / Greysson opened the field up 40 years ago. Whilst there are many long past history cases, even medieaval, the increase in them is easily explained by the fact cardiac arrest is no longer completely fatal because of defibrrilation etc. Some can be brought back to life although not as many as you think..

Read them. There are many other books.

They are not evidence. They are anecdotal accounts of either liars or the deluded.

What verifiable evidence is there that near death experiences are what they purport to be?

 

[Mountainmike]

They are not evidence. They are anecdotal accounts of either liars or the deluded.

What verifiable evidence is there that near death experiences are what they purport to be?

If you are arrogant enough to call medical doctors attending who verified the details as “liars and deluded” without even reading the case details, There is little point in discussing it. Or indeed there is no point in you going anywhere near a science forum again.