Another interesting definition. Death.

[Mountainmike]

A definition of life is important to define abiogenesis.

Another fascinating definition is death.

Clinical Death occurs when circulation and breathing stop.

Within a minute brain function stops.
And for all those that presume consciousness is a process of the brain.
Consciousness must stop by definition.

Despite modern medicine most who have a cardiac arrest die, unless they are close enough to a team who have defibrillators and know how to use them. They are brought back to life before irreparable damage is done.

There is a period in which to restore circulation for life to resume normally. Irreversible damage is done within 3-5 minutes. And very few can be brought back after that.Whilst attempts to keep some circulation going manually help extend this period, it is very low pressure and not enough to restore consciousness. Consciousness only returns after defibrillation resumes normal blood pumping. Return to measurable brain function can take time. Periods of unconsciousness can often follow ressusitation from cardiac arrest.


So so called "Near death experiences" are in clinical terms "actual death experiences"
Which is why those who can describe exact details of places , conversations and details of procedures and remote places they cannot have known or guessed are so interesting for the debate on "what is consciousness".

In this unconscious state one patient "howard" witnessed the unusual details of the ressusitation , procedures, which he cannot have known , described from a view point of the ceiling, the clothing worn by staff, and then as he floated up he described accurately a room above in the hospital off limits to anyone but staff being trained, with manikins around a central set of works tations used to train ressucitation procedures. He cannot have guessed it.

Clinically he was dead. He was clinically unconscious, whilst his experience show he was actually conscious. And his consciousness was of a remote place from his body.


The first cells to suffer irreversible damage are in the brain. It needs a lot of energy just to survive. Turns out that cells can enter a "pilot light" state. Not operating but lower energy. That is what happens during the down time, but reversibility only lasts for minutes in the brain.

Turns out The period in which can be extended by lowering body temperature dramatically, so some surgery (like cranial aneurisms) are done with the body temperature lowered dramatically. Blood is drained from the head. And just to make doubly sure, clickers are put in the patients ears with ECG monitoring any response.

One of the most famous NDE of Pam Reynolds - occured in this state.
She described with taped eyes the tools used to open her skull which she described as an electric toothbrush. turns out that is exactly what it looked like. She can never have seen it previously. Also the conversation by the vascula surgeon they could not find a sufficient blood vessel in one leg so wen to the other. She was surprised that they even needed blood vessels (actually to drain her blood, to work on the aneurism in her head)
There is not a chance in hell that her brain was active to record the conscious experience, and even if she had, she would not have been able to see what she described accurately.

This is one of hundreds of veridical NDE. That is conscious experience whose details can be validated by reference to the medics. Whilst clinically dead.


As I have said on other threads. Increasingly many neurologists and AE doctors no longer believe the hypothesis that consciousness is a product of brain chemistry. It doesnt fit the evidence. The mind controls the brain, even the deveopment of it. The brain is not the mind.

Read
Bellg "near death in ICU" as a reasonable introduction to the types of experience she has witnessed in AE
The "self does not die" Rivas - for analysis of a lot of veridical (ie verified ) experiences.
Van Lommel "conscioussness beyond life "for technical details of the science of brain process, neurologists views on consciousness, cardiac arrest and lateral studies on NDE

These are not quacks. They are real ICU , Cardiologist and neuro doctors speaking about NDE. They concluded that the hyptothesis that consciousness is a brain process is false. The evidence does not support it. . Van lommel has published his studies in the lancet several times.

 

[AV1611VET]

Another fascinating definition is death.

Death occurs when the telomeres stop working.

 

[Mountainmike]

Death occurs when the telomeres stop working.

Strictly, non functioning telomeres are not death itself. They simply start a stopwatch to the inevitable since cells can no longer reproduce..

The question I am begging with "what is death" is do you mean death of the body or death of consciousness (or self, if you wish) and are they the same? Christians say they are not the same. Only the body dies.

 

[tturt]

If they see a bright light, it doesnt necessarily mean it was God. Because satan himself masquerades as an angel of light (II COR 11:14)

We're spirit, soul, and body (I Thess 5:23)

"For as the body without the spirit is dead..." (Jam 2:26).

For believers, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (II Cor 5:8). Seems death is when both the spirit and soul leave the body permanently

Distinguishing permanently because Jesus, while on earth, raised 3 people (Jairus' daughter - "And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat." Luk 8), 2 - In Nain, at the funeral procession of a widow's only son "...And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. 15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother." (Luk 7), and Lazarus (John 11). So God decides.

"Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?” (Mal 2;10)
“And he made from one man every race of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted epochs and the fixed boundaries of the places where they would live;” (Acts 17:26)
"Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;" (Job 14:5)

Can check out Don Piper, Bruce Van Natta, a mechanic, who was crushed underneath a truck and Jim Woodford whose book, "Heaven, an Unexpected Journey" proceeds are given to charities.

 

[Mountainmike]

The books I relate deal mainly with veridical experience, that is details that can be independently verified.

But yes many do report a tunnel, a life review, a bright light, feeling of love, but it many cases they report someone tells them it is not their time. One asked ( see Lauren bellgs book) “ is the light God” and was told “ no , it is what happens when god breathes. But those details are not verifiable although very common.

If they see a bright light, it doesnt necessarily mean it was God. Because satan himself masquerades as an angel of light (II COR 11:14)

We're spirit, soul, and body (I Thess 5:23). "For as the body without the spirit is dead..." (Jam 2:26). For believers, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (II Cor 5:8). Seems death is when both the spirit and soul leave the body permanently - God decides.

"Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?” (Mal 2;10)
“And he made from one man every race of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted epochs and the fixed boundaries of the places where they would live;” (Acts 17:26)
"Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;" (Job 14:5)

Can check out Don Piper, Bruce Van Natta, a mechanic, who was crushed underneath a truck and Jim Woodford whose book, "Heaven, an Unexpected Journey" proceeds are given to charities.

 

[Halbhh]

Here in this early paragraph, I was thinking what you really mean is 'ordinary waking consciousness' when you wrote 'consciousness':

Within a minute brain function stops.
And for all those that presume consciousness is a process of the brain.
Consciousness must stop by definition.

The whole picture is quite complex, but so interesting, especially for believers in particular, who know that we don't end when the physical brain dies.

But even long before that, it seems much is happening.

And for that matter....the complexity is interesting even just in the mere physical side of what is happening.

Of course, believers and non believers both will have plenty of ways to guess at what it means that the brain is active for minutes of time that must seem timeless in a way.

But this doesn't tell us as believers very much. We know that we continue after the mere death of this physical brain, because we have learned that God is real, and all Christ said is real.

But that won't prove that God exists of course to a non believer.

Human brain may stay active for hours after death
Human brain may stay active for hours after death

 

[Derf]

Strictly, non functioning telomeres are not death itself. They simply start a stopwatch to the inevitable since cells can no longer reproduce..

The question I am begging with "what is death" is do you mean death of the body or death of consciousness (or self, if you wish) and are they the same? Christians say they are not the same. Only the body dies.

God told Adam that he would return to dust. Not his body, but HE would return to dust. If we say that only the body dies, and we continue living as a spiritual being, then aren't we saying the same thing Satan told Eve: "You shall not surely die, but will become like God"? God seemed to have nothing to say to Adam about the soul surviving the body.

 

[Mountainmike]

God told Adam that he would return to dust. Not his body, but HE would return to dust. If we say that only the body dies, and we continue living as a spiritual being, then aren't we saying the same thing Satan told Eve: "You shall not surely die, but will become like God"? God seemed to have nothing to say to Adam about the soul surviving the body.

Consider the transfiguration .
What state were Elijah and Moses?
And who are the “ cloud of witnesses” that surround us?
In what state are those in heaven and hell?

The first issue however is noting that consciousness does appear to survive clinical death, the theological explanation of that comes second.

 

[Derf]

Consider the transfiguration .
What state were Elijah and Moses?
And who are the “ cloud of witnesses” that surround us?
In what state are those in heaven and hell?

Good questions! What state were Elijah and Moses? Please provide scriptural support for your answer.

And before we answer "what state" in heaven and hell, can we discuss "who" is in heaven and hell, because it might help us answer "what state".

I'll start...Is King David in heaven right now? If yes, when did he get there?

The first issue however is noting that consciousness does appear to survive clinical death, the theological explanation of that comes second.

The only examples we have of these anecdotes is from those who survived the ordeal. We don't have ANY testimony from someone who did NOT survive, so "clinical death" may be a man-made condition not equivalent to actual death. I'm not ready to cast shade (pun intended, if you get my drift) at those who tell the stories, but Paul had an anecdote, too, and he didn't know what state he was in.
2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV)
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

If Paul didn't know, why should we use these anecdotes as more trustworthy than Paul?

 

[Mountainmike]

Good questions! What state were Elijah and Moses? Please provide scriptural support for your answer.

And before we answer "what state" in heaven and hell, can we discuss "who" is in heaven and hell, because it might help us answer "what state".

I'll start...Is King David in heaven right now? If yes, when did he get there?

The only examples we have of these anecdotes is from those who survived the ordeal. We don't have ANY testimony from someone who did NOT survive, so "clinical death" may be a man-made condition not equivalent to actual death. I'm not ready to cast shade (pun intended, if you get my drift) at those who tell the stories, but Paul had an anecdote, too, and he didn't know what state he was in.
2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV)
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

If Paul didn't know, why should we use these anecdotes as more trustworthy than Paul?

I am anxious to avoid the theological issues here. Whilst “ what does it mean for theology “ is important, it is a discussion of “why “ not “ what”
The focus to begin with is “ what happened” what is death.

The core conclusions.
1/the mind ( so consciousness) and body are separable , which is what verifiable evidence appears to show and is believed now by a significant number of medics involved.

2/ the experiences themselves demonstrably occurred during clinical death . By definition there is no consciousness after short period of cardiac arrest, This is important to demonstrate the falasy of consciousness only being a process of the brain

3/ so what happens is a return to life on recovery .

They are post death experience in a clinical sense. Read them. Make up your own mind.

 

[Derf]

I am anxious to avoid the theological issues here. Whilst “ what does it mean for theology “ is important, it is a discussion of “why “ not “ what”
The focus to begin with is “ what happened” what is death.

The core conclusions.
1/the mind ( so consciousness) and body are separable , which is what verifiable evidence appears to show and is believed now by a significant number of medics involved.

2/ the experiences themselves demonstrably occurred during clinical death . By definition there is no consciousness after short period of cardiac arrest, This is important to demonstrate the falasy of consciousness only being a process of the brain

3/ so what happens is a return to life on recovery .

They are post death experience in a clinical sense. Read them. Make up your own mind.

It seems to me that divorcing the conversation from the most reliable source of truth on the matter could easily lead it into false conclusions. Your first response to me was a valid one, so I wonder why you would so quickly set it aside.

The little I've seen from nonchristians on the subject quickly moved into discussions of paranormal phenomena--as it must, since it is a discussion of things spiritual, and they reject the use of God's Word. Let's not make the same mistake.

 

[Mountainmike]

It seems to me that divorcing the conversation from the most reliable source of truth on the matter could easily lead it into false conclusions. Your first response to me was a valid one, so I wonder why you would so quickly set it aside.

The little I've seen from nonchristians on the subject quickly moved into discussions of paranormal phenomena--as it must, since it is a discussion of things spiritual, and they reject the use of God's Word. Let's not make the same mistake.

I am conscious we are on a science forum here. So we have to keep on topic. Clearly the theistic angles very much interest me.

 

[Derf]

I am conscious we are on a science forum here. So we have to keep on topic. Clearly the theistic angles very much interest me.

That's good to keep on topic, but biblical knowledge ("science") is certainly as good as science that doesn't take the bible into account--especially when delving into areas that today's scientists admit is outside their purview.
From Merriam Webster:
Definition of science
1a: knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method
b: such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : NATURAL SCIENCE

Surely if death is a phenomenon of the physical world, it can't be fully understood without the revelation of the one who gave life in the first place, right? But here is a very interesting article that fits the tighter restrictions you're hoping for:
Has science explained life after death?

It mentions Pam Reynolds regarding NDEs, but it also talks about out-of-body experiences (OBEs) that were inducible by touching electrodes to a specific region of the brain. It was a repeatable phenomenon, and didn't have anything to do with clinical death or NDEs. It seems like for this discussion, it would be good to distinguish the two things.

Here's an excerpt:
While the REM intrusion theory for near-death experiences explains the apparent hallucinations that accompany NDEs, another aspect remains a mystery. How can a person watch his body after he dies? Though out-of-body experiences are sometimes reported as part of the near-death experience, they can also stand alone, indicating that they are a different animal than NDEs.

This is supported by a bit of accidental research. To find the cause of a 43-year-old epileptic patient's seizures, Swiss neurologist Dr. Olaf Blanke conducted a brain mapping test using electrodes planted on the brain to determine which area controls what function. As one region was being stimulated, the woman had a sudden out-of-body experience. She told Blanke that she could see herself from above [source: New York Times].

Blanke determined that by electrically stimulating the woman's angular gyrus, a part of the temporal parietal junction, he could induce her OBEs. What's remarkable is that the patient experienced an OBE each time her angular gyrus was arbitrarily stimulated.

 

[tturt]

From post #4 Bruce Van Natta, a mechanic, who was crushed underneath a truck has copies of his medical records. Jim Woodford's wife is a nurse. He was declared clinically dead while visiting heaven ("Heaven, an Unexpected Journey").

Dr Eben Alexander, a neurosurgeon, reports his NDE after being in a coma from acute meningitis. "I Survived Beyond and Back" Season 1, Episode 14. He had no brain function for 7 days Now he sees spirituality and science in perfect harmony.

Also, maybe this is scholarly enough and related - this research team leader was an atheist. They were studying the human brain and when a dying Christian woman prayed,, their instruments measured unexpected results. Scientists researched prayer. Christian Testimonies - The power of prayer

 

[jayem]

Another fascinating definition is death.

Clinical Death occurs when circulation and breathing stop.

I was a health care provider for 40+ years. I was on staff at a medical school affiliated teaching hospital and served 10 years on the Ethics Committee. We didn’t use the term “clinical death” which is vague and imprecise. In our institution, a patient who suddenly stops breathing and has no circulation (meaning no detectable pulses or blood pressure) is having a cardiorespiratory arrest. S/He won’t be declared dead until up to 20 minutes or so of resuscitative measures have failed. (Or the patient has a written DNR order in the chart.) This will be termed death by cardiorespiratory criteria. Which is defined as the irreversible cessation of breathing and cardiac activity. We also don’t use the term “brain dead.” Which has a pejorative connotation. The proper term is death by neurologic criteria. Which is defined as the irreversible cessation of all brain activity including the brainstem. It’s still somewhat controversial. Though there are standards specifying what neurologic functions must be tested and documented as absent for the criteria to be met. If these criteria are met, then the patient can be declared dead. Even if there is still a heartbeat and pulse.

 

[Mountainmike]

I was a health care provider for 40+ years. I was on staff at a medical school affiliated teaching hospital and served 10 years on the Ethics Committee. We didn’t use the term “clinical death” which is vague and imprecise. In our institution, a patient who suddenly stops breathing and has no circulation (meaning no detectable pulses or blood pressure) is having a cardiorespiratory arrest. S/He won’t be declared dead until up to 20 minutes or so of resuscitative measures have failed. (Or the patient has a written DNR order in the chart.) This will be termed death by cardiorespiratory criteria. Which is defined as the irreversible cessation of breathing and cardiac activity. We also don’t use the term “brain dead.” Which has a pejorative connotation. The proper term is death by neurologic criteria. Which is defined as the irreversible cessation of all brain activity including the brainstem. It’s still somewhat controversial. Though there are standards specifying what neurologic functions must be tested and documented as absent for the criteria to be met. If these criteria are met, then the patient can be declared dead. Even if there is still a heartbeat and pulse.

Interesting.

I can only say that others do use the term "clinical death"

- refer such as Bellg (various others books cited) in charge of ED who did use the term. Lots of medical discussion of the process of cell "pilot light state" then death in Van Lommels book. Brain cells are the fastest to be irreversible.

Its why I found the definition interesting. Regardless of terminology, the consensus is that after less than a minute of starvation of blood to the brain, there can be no consciousness if a process of the brain which makes the consciousness cases in that state so interesting.



And in absence of restoration of cardiac activity death is inevitable.

 

[jayem]

Interesting.


And in absence of restoration of cardiac activity death is inevitable.

Of course. But, by adopting the Uniform Determination of Death Act, all 50 U.S. states now also recognize death by neurologic criteria as death in the legal sense. In some cases, it's problematic. There are those who have difficulty accepting that a loved one--who meets the neurologic death criteria, but still has a heartbeat and is breathing by a ventilator--can be pronounced legally dead, and be removed from artificial life support.

Determination of Death and the Dead Donor Rule: A Survey of the Current Law on Brain Death

 

[Kylie]

A definition of life is important to define abiogenesis.

I think there's a mistake here.

What defines a PERSON as being alive is not necessarily going to be what defines ANY life form as being alive. I mean, you could say that a person is alive if they have brain activity, they are breathing, they have a heartbeat... But by this standard a jellyfish is dead.

So I think you need to clarify here. Are you speaking of a definition of "life" that applies to ALL living things and does not apply to all non-living things?

 

[Mountainmike]

I think there's a mistake here.

What defines a PERSON as being alive is not necessarily going to be what defines ANY life form as being alive. I mean, you could say that a person is alive if they have brain activity, they are breathing, they have a heartbeat... But by this standard a jellyfish is dead.

So I think you need to clarify here. Are you speaking of a definition of "life" that applies to ALL living things and does not apply to all non-living things?

Which is the point in essence my post makes.

In the context of humans death , it is also about consciousness.

Which evidence shows does survive brain shutdown and clinical death.

Thats a massive problem for any who think life is just random chance chenistry.

 

[Larniavc]

Which is why those who can describe exact details of places , conversations and details of procedures and remote places they cannot have known or guessed

That doesn’t happen though.