Annihilationism

Jan001 · Jun 28, 2016

Timothew said:
If that is correct, then by the exact same reasoning each of us is omniscient. All mankind is created in God's image. He is omniscient, we must also be omniscient. I'm going to use the omniscience you just gave me to say that you are wrong.

We are not like God in every way.
I did not say that we were like Him in every way.

We were created. God was not. He is God. We are not God.

God is omniscient. We are not omniscient. God is almighty. We are not almighty. God is omnipresent. We are not omnipresent. God is omnipotent. We are not omnipotent.

God, a Spirit, is immortal. He made our spirits immortal. In this we are like Him. God is love. If we love, we are like Him. God gave us free will to choose good or evil. If we choose good we are like Him.

Matthew 22:31-33
But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. nkjv

Mark 12:26
But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? nkjv

Please note that these people's bodies were dead and buried, but they were still consciously alive, and they will receive their own resurrected bodies when Jesus returns for His second coming. Likewise the physically dead rich man was being tormented in the flames, but he was not consumed or annihilated. Luke 16:19-26

God cannot ever sin. We will become more god-like after the resurrection because we will not be able to sin with our bodies or with our minds. We Christians are all children of the Most High God even though we can become disinherited through our own disobedience. Psalm 82:6

John 10:32-36
Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? nkjv

There is eternal happiness for those who love God and there is eternal suffering for those who do not love God. There is no such thing as annihilation. The bush was burning in the flames, but it was not consumed/annihilated. Neither will the people in hell be annihilated. Exodus 3:2

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” nkjv

Der Alte · Jun 28, 2016

Timothew said:
It is the REST of the Bible that proves that the wages of sin is death.
My comments on Revelation merely show that it does not prove that there is eternal conscious torment in hell.

Nobody argues with Romans 6:23 your out-of-context proof text. But Paul also wrote Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" And Hebrews 9:27 tells us "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
..... All, 100%, of mankind has sinned, is appointed to die and face judgement. Thus the requirement of Rom 6:23 will certainly be fulfilled by all, 100%, of mankind. But what the proof text does not say is "The wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment then a second death."

My comment on Ezekiel was in response to the false statement that "death never refers to the soul". Not only CAN a soul die, but according to Ezekiel, the soul who sins SHALL die. This is the complete opposite of the doctrine that assumes souls can not die and will be tortured alive forever in the underworld.

But your proof text from Ezekiel does not necessarily show that a soul can die. As I said which you did not address. A soul does not sin, a person sins, and the person who sins will die. The context of Ezek 18:20 shows that soul is used to mean person.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The verse does not say "The [soul of the] son shall not bear the iniquity of [the soul of] the father, neither shall the [soul of the] father bear the iniquity of the [soul of the son] son:" And it does not say "the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon [his soul], and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon [his soul]."

StanJ · Jun 28, 2016

vinsight4u said:
Revelation 20 is not about Armageddon, but the 1000 years and
later Gog comes.
Rev. 19 shows armies leave heaven. They are the saints. These
saints are divided up as to those that were beheaded and those
that weren't slain under that time. Only the non-beheaded and now live people/army go to the battle at the end of Rev. 19. This
is why Rev. 20 has "they sat".

Rev. 19:14
"And the armies...followed Him..."
Rev. 19:19
"...against His army."
Rev. 20:4
"..they sat..."

That may be part of it, but it actually starts in Revelation 16:16 and goes on from there. The Army spoken of in Revelation 19 are not the saints, they are angels as Jesus spoke of in Matthew 26:53

vinsight4u · Jun 28, 2016

StanJ · Jun 28, 2016

vinsight4u said:
.

Revelation 18:1 and 19:1 both are places where new visions
begin. Chapter 20 continues the Rev. 19 vision.

Rev. 18:1
"And after these things..."/other visions were seen before
this one was shown to John
Rev. 19:1
"And after these things..." as in other visions came first
This now will tell a whole new story.
Rev. 20:1
"And I saw an angel..."
no -after these things
John is still telling us the chapter 19 vision and it continues
on into chapter 21.
"And I saw a new heaven and new earth..."

In Rev. 19, the wife put on righteousness outfits. This is what
the riders on the horses are attired in, and what the church
waits for. to be made the righteousness
2 Corinthians 5:21/that we might be made the righteousness of
God in Him

Revelation 19:8/righteousness of saints

Rev, 20 verse 4 has "they sat". This means this group is already
in the vision, and angels will not sit to judge.

It is one Revelation with different aspects and is not necessarily in chronological order.

Revelation 20:4 is talking about those who will judge during the Millennia. I see no significance in what you're pointing out as; 'they sat'?

Der Alte · Jun 28, 2016

Timothew said:
...Ezekiel 18:4 says that the soul who sins shall die. This shows that souls do not live forever. . . .

In further response to this out-of-context proof text. Does this prove that souls do not live forever?

In Genesis 12:5, Genesis 46:15, Genesis 46:18, Genesis 46:22, Genesis 46:25, Genesis 46:25-27 the descendants of Jacob are referred to as a certain number of souls. And in Joshua 10:28, Joshua 10:30, Joshua 10:32, Joshua 10:35, Joshua 10:37, Joshua 10:39, Joshua 11:11, Joshua is told to "destroy" or he did "destroy" all the "souls" in certain cities. Joshua did not have the power to literally destroy souls but he could kill people. Therefore in all these verses "souls" refers to individual persons.

vinsight4u · Jun 28, 2016

vinsight4u · Jun 28, 2016

Der Alte · Jun 28, 2016

Timothew said:
Baloney! The Bible says in many places that the wicked will be destroyed. Annihilate is only a synonym for destroy. I don't know know how you can possibly come to the conclusion that the wicked will not be destroyed when the Bible specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed. The Bible DOES use the word "destroyed" since that is what God is conveying to us.

What good does it do to deny what the Bible says and believe something that isn't true instead of what the Bible says?
What good does it do to try to tell us that the Bible doesn't say that the wicked will be destroyed when we can easily look at the passages in the Bible that tell us that the wicked will be destroyed?

If, the Greek word translated "destroyed" can only mean 'destroyed" and nothing else. But it does not.
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

BAG Greek Lexicon online

ewq1938 · Jun 28, 2016

Geralt said:
- eternal punishment is not 'eternal' if it lasts for a moment. think about it.
.

No, think about this: the punishment is death not torture. It is the punishment of death that is eternal. You misunderstand what the punishment is.

ewq1938 · Jun 28, 2016

StanJ said:
I'm afraid you're not following this chapter very carefully. Versus 1-6 depict the 1000 year reign. Verses 7 to 10 depict the end of that thousand year reign and Armageddon where Satan is finally defeated and all those that follow him.

That's not Armageddon. Satan is not defeated at Armageddon, the two beasts of Rev 13 are. In Rev 20 Satan and his army are not at Armageddon but at outside of Jerusalem. At Armageddon Jesus army meets the army of the beast. In rev 20, Satan and his army do no6 meeet Jesus nor an army at all but are simply burned up and Satan cast into the Lof where the two beasts were already because they were put there at Armageddon.

ewq1938 · Jun 28, 2016

StanJ said:
That may be part of it, but it actually starts in Revelation 16:16 and goes on from there. The Army spoken of in Revelation 19 are not the saints, they are angels as Jesus spoke of in Matthew 26:53

It's saints and angels.

Jud_1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1Th_3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

StanJ · Jun 28, 2016

vinsight4u said:
Right! Revelation chapters 16-22 are in order, but not chapters
4-15. Those chapters became the mystery of God.

Rev. 7 shows two sets of angels.
four angels and a set of "we" angels/that seal people
There were actually seven of the sealing angels. This is
why Rev. 8:2 refers to - the seven angels.

Wrong but I see you won't be convinced so I won't bother trying.

Der Alte · Jun 28, 2016

ewq1938 said:
...
compare that to this:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
G622
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

See my post #170 above for the complete definition of apollumi.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Click to expand...

...
Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Do they perish, consumed away in smoke or do they live forever in torture?? Scripture is clear!...

Is scripture clear? Or is this just another out-of-context proof text?

Psalm 37:1-2
(1) A Psalm of David. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
(2) For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

This Psalm is not about man's eternal fate but what happens to Israel's enemies in this life. They will be cut down like grass and wither like green plants. That is not annihilation.

Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Evildoers cut off like flowers and green plants, vs. 2. Israel cannot see into eternity but they can see their enemies are no longer around to attack them. That is not annihilation.

Psalm 37:14-15
(14) The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
(15) Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

The wicked attack Israel with the sword and bow but their sword will pierce their own heart and their bow broken that is not annihilation.

Psalm 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.

The arms of the wicked are broken. That is not annihilation.

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

The wicked will consume away into smoke, in this world.

Psalm 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Those who are cursed by God will be cut off like flowers, wither like green plants, in this world., vs. 2. That is not annihilation.

Psalm 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psalm 37:34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
Psalm 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
Psalm 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

The wicked will be cut off like flowers, wither like green plants, vs. 2. Israel cannot see into eternity but they can see what happens to their enemies in this world. That is not annihilation.

vinsight4u · Jun 28, 2016

Geralt · Jun 29, 2016

ewq1938 said:
No, think about this: the punishment is death not torture. It is the punishment of death that is eternal. You misunderstand what the punishment is.

you must have been inventing your own bible. 'eternal punishment' is what the text says. if you want to insert 'death' or ideas of 'torture' and make conclusions based on it, then it is convenient for you BUT it is NOT what the text says.

ewq1938 · Jun 29, 2016

Geralt said:
you must have been inventing your own bible. 'eternal punishment' is what the text says. if you want to insert 'death' or ideas of 'torture' and make conclusions based on it, then it is convenient for you BUT it is NOT what the text says.

Again, we have to identify the punishment that will be eternal. Just inventing what punishment we think will happen isn't good enough. The punishment is written to be death so any other opinion is not scriptural.

Geralt · Jun 29, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Again, we have to identify the punishment that will be eternal. Just inventing what punishment we think will happen isn't good enough. The punishment is written to be death so any other opinion is not scriptural.

the problem is you equate death by obliteration into nothing= annihilation. that is too far fetched, but to some like yourselves and easy and convenient resolution of the classic way looking at it as eternal 'torture'.

i will not say it is 'torture' or that 'death'= annihilation. i will simply stay with what text simply says, which comes from the lips of christ himself - 'eternal punishment' - and that means a punishment which is eternal (unending). a consequence of Christ's verdict "depart from me" - or dis-fellowship with christ.

ewq1938 · Jun 29, 2016

Geralt said:
the problem is you equate death by obliteration into nothing= annihilation. that is too far fetched

No, it's in line with scripture.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Your view is not scriptural.

but to some like yourselves and easy and convenient resolution of the classic way looking at it as eternal 'torture'.

Eternal torture is your view not mine. Your view is wrong.

i will not say it is 'torture' or that 'death'= annihilation. i will simply stay with what text simply says, which comes from the lips of christ himself - 'eternal punishment' - and that means a punishment which is eternal (unending).

You continue to not understand what punishment is eternal. I told you want it was but you ignored it.

Annihilationism

What is your view of the final state of the unrepentant.

Annihilationism (I believe the unrepentant will be destroyed)

Traditionalism (I believe the unrepentant will suffer eternal conscious torment in hell)

Universalism (I believe that everyone will eventually be saved)

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