Annihilationism

[StanJ]

"Eternal" in my understanding can mean "eternally existing" outside of time (God) in future (I.e hosts of heaven and saints) or "eternal in consequence" (God's final judgement through Christ). so after judgement and justifiable punishment (all through God's Word) then annihilation fits both God's justice and mercy in my understanding.

As the concept of annihilation is never used in scripture, but only the definition of punishment being eternal, then I don't see how you can possibly draw this conclusion? They would have simply used the word 'destroyed', IF that's what God was trying to convey to us.

 

[Der Alte]

So you are basically saying that in the same way those who know God are not burned up those who don't know God will not be burned up either? Doesn't the Bible teach the wicked will be burned up like chaff?
Matthew 3:12
"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

"Chaff" is part of the wheat not a separate plant. The inedible chaff is removed from the edible wheat then the chaff is thrown away or burned. This does not support individual humans being burned up.

Also, I don't think there was any smoke in those cases. But in the lake of fire? Smoke. A lot.

Only things being burned up smoke.

Many things emit smoke when burning, many don't whether they are completely consumed or not.

 

[Job8]

Fire represents a destructive force. This lake of fire won't be normal fire as we can create ourselves.

What you could add is THE MOST PAINFUL destructive force.

I believe it to be God himself since God is a consuming fire.

If the Lake of Fire is "God Himself" then He would not have created something apart from Himself and called it "the Lake of Fire". Do you see the illogic?

 

[ewq1938]

What you could add is THE MOST PAINFUL destructive force.

No I don't add things to scripture.

If the Lake of Fire is "God Himself" then He would not have created something apart from Himself and called it "the Lake of Fire". Do you see the illogic?

Yes I see your "illogic". The lake of fire is a metaphor. It is not a literal place.

 

[Geralt]

Mat 25:46 These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."

really would not matter anyway.
people in heaven have only thoughts for God and rejoice in his undeserved grace.
people in hell have only thoughts for God and suffer in his deserving justice.

 

[Timothew]

The Lake of Fire is metaphorical not actual. Besides which fire cannot destroy the spirit. Finding the context of what happens to these people is in Revelation 20:10, which clearly shows this punishment lasts 'day and night for ever and ever'. Death in the Bible, only ever refers to the body, not the spirit/soul.

The person who wrote the Book of Revelation actually said in the book what he meant by the Lake of Fire. He said that the Lake of Fire is the second death. It is true that the lake of fire is metaphorical. It represents death, specifically the second one. You are also mistaken in your asssumption that "Death in the Bible, only ever refers to the body, not the spirit/soul." The Bible specifically states in Ezekiel 18:4 that the soul who sins shall die.

I know that it is hard to be told these things, but why hold onto a doctrine that isn't supported by the Bible? What good does it do to believe something that isn't true?

 

[Timothew]

Mat 25:46 These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."

really would not matter anyway.
people in heaven have only thoughts for God and rejoice in his undeserved grace.
people in hell have only thoughts for God and suffer in his deserving justice.

Thanks. One group goes to eternal life and the other does not, according to Matthew 25:46. That proves that the goats do not live forever in hell being tormented alive. The fire from verse 41 burns them up.
You should have read through the thread. Those verses were already discussed.

 

[Timothew]

As the concept of annihilation is never used in scripture, but only the definition of punishment being eternal, then I don't see how you can possibly draw this conclusion? They would have simply used the word 'destroyed', IF that's what God was trying to convey to us.

Baloney! The Bible says in many places that the wicked will be destroyed. Annihilate is only a synonym for destroy. I don't know know how you can possibly come to the conclusion that the wicked will not be destroyed when the Bible specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed. The Bible DOES use the word "destroyed" since that is what God is conveying to us.

What good does it do to deny what the Bible says and believe something that isn't true instead of what the Bible says?
What good does it do to try to tell us that the Bible doesn't say that the wicked will be destroyed when we can easily look at the passages in the Bible that tell us that the wicked will be destroyed?

 

[Geralt]

Mat 25:46 These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."

i have read the verse, but i will not put intepretations beyond what is written.

- v41 only says eternal fire, which might suggest burning, but does not conclude termination.

- eternal punishment is not 'eternal' if it lasts for a moment. think about it.

whether you like it or not, eternity is unbounded by time and 'eternal punishment' simply means what it says.

BUT as i have said:

really would not matter anyway.
people in heaven have only thoughts for God and rejoice in his undeserved grace.
people in hell have only thoughts for God and suffer in his deserving justice.​

it's not as if you are in heaven and still thinking of your buddys burning eternally in hell. that is NOT heaven.

Thanks. One group goes to eternal life and the other does not, according to Matthew 25:46. That proves that the goats do not live forever in hell being tormented alive. The fire from verse 41 burns them up.
You should have read through the thread. Those verses were already discussed.

 

[Der Alte]

The person who wrote the Book of Revelation actually said in the book what he meant by the Lake of Fire. He said that the Lake of Fire is the second death. It is true that the lake of fire is metaphorical. It represents death, specifically the second one. You are also mistaken in your asssumption that "Death in the Bible, only ever refers to the body, not the spirit/soul." The Bible specifically states in Ezekiel 18:4 that the soul who sins shall die.

Souls do not commit sins, people do! Ergo "souls," in your proof text Ezekiel 18:4, means the person who sins will die. While the LOF is called the second death twice, not once in Revelation does it say someone/something is thrown into the LOF then they die. In fact Rev. says that the beast, the false prophet and the devil are thrown into the LOF and they are tormented day and night forever. Rev. also says that "death and hell are thrown into the LOF, which is the second death." The problem is that neither death nor hell have or can die a first death so the LOF is NOT a second death for them.
.....Some would have us believe that the LOF is a metaphor or some other figure of speech. So we have something literal being figuratively thrown into a figurative place and figuratively being tormented for ever and ever, which doesn't actually mean tormented and doesn't actually mean forever but supposedly actually means they die.

I know that it is hard to be told these things, but why hold onto a doctrine that isn't supported by the Bible? What good does it do to believe something that isn't true?

I know that it is hard to have it revealed that none of one's out-of-context proof texts prove what one thinks they do.

 

[Timothew]

Souls do not commit sins, people do! Ergo "souls," in your proof text Ezekiel 18:4, means the person who sins will die. While the LOF is called the second death twice, not once in Revelation does it say someone/something is thrown into the LOF then they die. In fact Rev. says that the beast, the false prophet and the devil are thrown into the LOF and they are tormented day and night forever. Rev. also says that "death and hell are thrown into the LOF, which is the second death." The problem is that neither death nor hell have or can die a first death so the LOF is NOT a second death for them.
.....Some would have us believe that the LOF is a metaphor or some other figure of speech. So we have something literal being figuratively thrown into a figurative place and figuratively being tormented for ever and ever, which doesn't actually mean tormented and doesn't actually mean forever but supposedly actually means they die.



I know that it is hard to have it revealed that none of one's out-of-context proof texts prove what one thinks they do.

It is the REST of the Bible that proves that the wages of sin is death.
My comments on Revelation merely show that it does not prove that there is eternal conscious torment in hell.
My comment on Ezekiel was in response to the false statement that "death never refers to the soul". Not only CAN a soul die, but according to Ezekiel, the soul who sins SHALL die. This is the complete opposite of the doctrine that assumes souls can not die and will be tortured alive forever in the underworld.

 

[Timothew]

- eternal punishment is not 'eternal' if it lasts for a moment. think about it.

I never ONCE made the claim that to be destroyed and remained destroyed forever only lasts for a moment.
That would be complete NONSENSE! Think about it. If someone is destroyed, and they remain destroyed forever, how much of eternity will they remain destroyed for? One moment? Or Eternally?

The POINT (Which everyone seems to be missing) is that Matthew 25:46 does not prove in any way that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment in hell. Another point that is CONTINUALLY SKIPPED OVER by people who want to believe in eternal conscious torment in hell, is that only ONE of the groups will receive eternal life AT ALL! How can someone be tortured alive forever, if they are not alive forever? They CAN'T, and it contradicts Matthew 25:46 to claim that they will be conscious of torment forever.

Reading skills are apparently not important for people who believe the lie of eternal conscious torment.
Do you agree or disagree with this statement:
"The wicked will be destroyed forever."
A simple yes or no answer will do.

 

[Jan001]

It's a crying shame that this is supposedly 'controversial Christian theology'.
The traditional view makes many hate God to the bone.
It is built on the un-Biblical assumption that a soul is immortal.

The worm and the flame that will not die are the means by which the lost will be devoured.

All mankind is made in the image and likeness of God. What are God's attributes? For one, He is a conscious Spirit and His consciousness cannot be destroyed. Neither can a human's spirit/soul/consciousness be destroyed/annihilated. In this we are like God. A human's consciousness cannot be destroyed even after his body is destroyed by physical death. His physical ears cannot hear, his physical eyes cannot see, and his physical brain cannot think or reason, but his consciousness/soul/spirit does all these things for him after his physical death.

The rich man was already suffering in hell before Jesus' resurrection. The rich man was not annihilated by the flames. Even though he had no body, he still suffered terribly. What will it be like for him when he has his immortal body again after the resurrection?

Luke 16:22-26
So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’rsv
​

Perhaps the worms in hell never die because they will continually feed upon the condemned evildoers' resurrected, immortal flesh.

Mark 9:43-44
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ rsv ​

Revelation 14:9-12
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. rsv​

People in hell are tormented forever and ever. Their torments never cease.

​

 

[Timothew]

All mankind is made in the image and likeness of God. What are God's attributes? For one, He is a conscious Spirit and His consciousness cannot be destroyed. Neither can a human's spirit/soul/consciousness be destroyed/annihilated. In this we are like God...

If that is correct, then by the exact same reasoning each of us is omniscient. All mankind is created in God's image. He is omniscient, we must also be omniscient. I'm going to use the omniscience you just gave me to say that you are wrong.

 

[StanJ]

The person who wrote the Book of Revelation actually said in the book what he meant by the Lake of Fire. He said that the Lake of Fire is the second death. It is true that the lake of fire is metaphorical. It represents death, specifically the second one. You are also mistaken in your asssumption that "Death in the Bible, only ever refers to the body, not the spirit/soul." The Bible specifically states in Ezekiel 18:4 that the soul who sins shall die.

John of Patmos wrote the Book of Revelation and yes he said that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Not hard to figure out seeing as though the second Resurrection had just taken place earlier in the chapter for the judgment and all those whose names were not found written in the Book of Life we're condemned to the Lake of Fire. That's where their bodies died a second time, but their souls continue on as do all the spirits that were thrown in there as previously shown in v10.

I know that it is hard to be told these things, but why hold onto a doctrine that isn't supported by the Bible? What good does it do to believe something that isn't true?

Despite your condescending reply, you have to actually have eyes to see and ears to hear, to be able to understand what Revelation is telling you.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[StanJ]

Baloney! The Bible says in many places that the wicked will be destroyed. Annihilate is only a synonym for destroy. I don't know know how you can possibly come to the conclusion that the wicked will not be destroyed when the Bible specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed. The Bible DOES use the word "destroyed" since that is what God is conveying to us.

There's a pretty strong biblical refutation, 'BALONEY'!
My first suggestion is to stop using the KJV as obviously it's confusing you. Secondly when you make an assertion tried backing It Up by biblical support/corroboration.

What good does it do to deny what the Bible says and believe something that isn't true instead of what the Bible says?
What good does it do to try to tell us that the Bible doesn't say that the wicked will be destroyed when we can easily look at the passages in the Bible that tell us that the wicked will be destroyed?

I can readily see that you're proficient at opining, but what I'd like to see is your proficiency at actually exegeting the word of God.

 

[StanJ]

This is the group of those and another group, along with
Christ showing up for the 1000 years to reign during the millennium. No one is being raised in Rev. 20, just like they
are not being beheaded in chapter 20.
they sat
So they are already in action before this verse.
others join them
they were beheaded and lived
But these are past events for them, just like the people that
came first to sit had already earlier lived.

I'm afraid you're not following this chapter very carefully. Versus 1-6 depict the 1000 year reign. Verses 7 to 10 depict the end of that thousand year reign and Armageddon where Satan is finally defeated and all those that follow him. Versus 11-15 depict the great White Throne judgement and all those that are raised to be judged. They are then thrown into the Lake of Fire where their bodies die for a second time and where they will be in torment eternally as Jesus himself said.

 

[Der Alte]

Mat 25:46 These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."
i have read the verse, but i will not put intepretations beyond what is written.
- v41 only says eternal fire, which might suggest burning, but does not conclude termination.
- eternal punishment is not 'eternal' if it lasts for a moment. think about it.
whether you like it or not, eternity is unbounded by time and 'eternal punishment' simply means what it says.
BUT as i have said:

really would not matter anyway.
people in heaven have only thoughts for God and rejoice in his undeserved grace.
people in hell have only thoughts for God and suffer in his deserving justice.​

it's not as if you are in heaven and still thinking of your buddys burning eternally in hell. that is NOT heaven.

Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’

Justin Martyr First Apology Chap II
And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” (Isa_66:24) and then shall they repent, when it profits them not. And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: “I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back. And then in Jerusalem there shall be great lamentation, not the lamentation of mouths or of lips, but the lamentation of the heart; and they shall rend not their garments, but their hearts. Tribe by tribe they shall mourn, and then they shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and they shall say, Why, O Lord, hast Thou made us to err from Thy way? The glory which our fathers blessed, has for us been turned into shame.”

Justin First Apology Chap VIII
And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.

Justin First Apology Chap. XII. — Christians Live as Under God’s Eye.
And more than all other men are we your helpers and allies in promoting peace, seeing that we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtuous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire; but would by all means restrain himself, and adorn himself with virtue, that he might obtain the good gifts of God, and escape the punishments.

Justin Apology Chap. XVIII. — Proof of Immortality and the Resurrection.
For reflect upon the end of each of the preceding kings, how they died the death common to all, which, if it issued in insensibility, would be a godsend20 to all the wicked. But since sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked), see that ye neglect not to be convinced, and to hold as your belief, that these things are true.

Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] Part First — Apologetic Chap. XLV.
No doubt about it, we, who receive our awards under the judgment of an all-seeing God, and who look forward to eternal punishment from Him for sin, — we alone make real effort to attain a blameless life, under the influence of our ampler knowledge, the impossibility of concealment, and the greatness of the threatened torment, not merely long-enduring but everlasting, fearing Him, whom he too should fear who the fearing judges, — even God, I mean, and not the proconsul.

Tertullian VI. Ad Nationes Book 1 chap. vii
It guarantees eternal life to such as follow and observe it; on the other hand, it threatens with the eternal punishment of an unending fire those who are profane and hostile; while to both classes alike is preached a resurrection from the dead.

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe.
3. And the fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.

 

[vinsight4u]

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