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The serpent was teaching that the knowledge of good and evil would cause human beings to become little gods. He also said "Ye shall NOT surely die", but God said that in the day that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit he would SURELY DIE. Yet Adam did not drop dead on that day, and lived on until he was 930 years old.Isn't that similar to what the serpent was teaching?
Or perhaps God in His grace let Adam live longer than he should have so that the messiah could come and rescue man from sin and death? Death is not eternal separation from God: death is death. Look, I know you are trying really hard to justify your interpretation of the scriptures, but maybe, just maybe you have a view of death that nobody in the OT or NT had. Why is death constantly paralleled with sleep in the OT, NT, and Jesus if the dead are actually awake and living?The serpent was teaching that the knowledge of good and evil would cause human beings to become little gods. He also said "Ye shall NOT surely die", but God said that in the day that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit he would SURELY DIE. Yet Adam did not drop dead on that day, and lived on until he was 930 years old.
However he was SEPARATED from God (and from the Garden of Eden) when he sinned. That establishes that the Second Death is eternal separation from God, and at the same time that all human beings are born separated from God until they receive the New Birth. Those who are not born again experience the Second Death -- ETERNAL separation from God in torment in the Lake of Fire.
ANNIHILATIONISM = ESCAPISM FROM REALITY
Your entire post here is just interpreting things through the immortal soul framework. I could go through all of those scriptures and explain why they don't mean what you think they do, but it is probably a waste of my time.
One thing I will address, however, is the idea that death is always an "utter end of one's existence." It is the end of life, and the reason why there is a second death is because we must be resurrected from the first death. After the second death there will be no resurrection from it.
You misunderstand what annihilation is: it simply means complete destruction, and when you completely destroy someone they die. The first death is annihilation, and the second death in the lake of fire is also annihilation. The difference is that one is temporary due to the resurrection and final judgement while the other is eternal.I am not interpreting through an "immortal soul framework" but simply acknowledging what Scripture plainly states. It is you who appears to be a slave to an interpretive bias. You could go through all the scriptures I cited and offer your spin on them, but I'm sure I could counter every spin you make. This isn't my first rodeo in this particular matter.
Ah, so "death" doesn't mean death in the sense in which it is meant in the phrase "second death," which is annihilation. So, you recognize, then, that the term "death" does not always mean annihilation. That's a start. Now, apply that fact to the way you interpret the term in your favorite proof texts and consider them in the light of the verses and passages I cited.
Ever wonder how Moses and Elijah appear on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus? The Resurrection hadn't happened; the remains of these men were still buried in the ground. But, there they are having a chat with Jesus. Seems like they have a spiritual existence quite apart from their physical bodies (like those saints in heaven in Revelation 6 who are robed in white and cry out to God for justice). Given that this is what Scripture teaches about our immaterial soul, I'm not surprised.
Selah.
You misunderstand what annihilation is: it simply means complete destruction, and when you completely destroy someone they die. The first death is annihilation, and the second death in the lake of fire is also annihilation. The difference is that one is temporary due to the resurrection and final judgement while the other is eternal.
The transfiguration is not enough to prove that souls are immortal. It was a special vision showing Jesus in future glory being greater than the law and the prophets.
How do you interpret this passage in light of the doctrine of an immortal soul?
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die...
Before you grab a different translation and say the word is actually 'person,' just know that the Hebrew is nephesh, which is translated as soul 475 times in the OT. If you think that it should be translated 'person,' that's fine. So how about this verse, instead:
Psalms 146:4
His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
If the OT writers believed that people went to a conscious afterlife, then why do they say that thoughts perish at death?
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
Well, surely the dead know something if their soul lives on after death, right? Oh, here is a doozy:
Psalms 115:7
The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor do any who go down into silence
Wait... If the soul is immortal, then why don't the dead praise God? Why are they silent? Maybe the dead are not alive and conscious?
Isaiah 38:18
For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
Psalms 94:17
If the LORD had not been my help, My soul would soon have dwelt in the abode of silence.
People are pretty silent when they die it seems... Maybe the dead are in a sleep-like state? Maybe that's why we need to be resurrected out of the grave? Idk. I guess I could be wrong, but whose interpretations are more consistent?
Those verses need to be a little more specific then... They might convince someone that souls can actually die!Those verses refer to the dead body not the soul or spirit. They are all written from the earthly perspective. All related verses written about the afterlife shows souls fully alert and capable of speaking. No one's soul or spirit is asleep nor do those even need sleep.
Those verses need to be a little more specific then... They might convince someone that souls can actually die!
This one especially; whoever wrote it must have been tired:
Psalms 94:17
If the LORD had not been my help, My soul would soon have dwelt in the abode of silence.
He must have meant his body, though, I am sure.
Indeed. Dead souls don't either.It's very silent inside of a grave. Dead bodies don't even snore!
Indeed. Dead souls don't either.
Thanks. One group goes to eternal life and the other does not, according to Matthew 25:46. That proves that the goats do not live forever in hell being tormented alive. The fire from verse 41 burns them up.Matthew 25:41 & 46
This is the confusing thing though..True but souls don't die when the body dies. They can only die in the LOF.
I will give one of the reasons that I believe that the wages of sin is death and not eternal torture in hell.
The Bible specifically states in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That settles the question right there. There is no possibility that the wages of sin is to be tortured by God for all eternity.
All spirit beings live forever, the question is where will they be?
The transfiguration is not enough to prove that souls are immortal. It was a special vision showing Jesus in future glory being greater than the law and the prophets.
How do you interpret this passage in light of the doctrine of an immortal soul?
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die...
Psalms 146:4
His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
If the OT writers believed that people went to a conscious afterlife, then why do they say that thoughts perish at death?
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
Well, surely the dead know something if their soul lives on after death, right?
Oh, here is a doozy:
Psalms 115:7
The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor do any who go down into silence
Wait... If the soul is immortal, then why don't the dead praise God? Why are they silent? Maybe the dead are not alive and conscious?
This is the confusing thing though..
Because in Genesis 2 we read that the body of dust that receives the breath (ruach) of life is a living soul.
The Lake of Fire is metaphorical not actual. Besides which fire cannot destroy the spirit. Finding the context of what happens to these people is in Revelation 20:10, which clearly shows this punishment lasts 'day and night for ever and ever'. Death in the Bible, only ever refers to the body, not the spirit/soul.Thanks. One group goes to eternal life and the other does not, according to Matthew 25:46. That proves that the goats do not live forever in hell being tormented alive. The fire from verse 41 burns them up.
You should have read through the thread. Those verses were already discussed.
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