Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Actually Sheol is a place of death, and the lake of fire is called the second death.Since Sheol is a place of torture for the wicked, how much more will the Lake of Fire be (after the judgment)?
Actually Sheol is a place of death, and the lake of fire is called the second death.
Since Sheol is a place of death, and the lake of fire is the second death, and Paul says that the wages of sin is death, and Jesus said that those who refuse to repent will perish, isn't it much more Biblical to say that the wicked will perish rather than be tortured alive in Sheol or the Lake of Fire?
I have made no false accusations and I challenge to prove otherwise by citing post number.Again another false accusation that abound plentifully here apparently.
How can you possibly say I am taking it out of context. Let's review. You posted (but I added the bolding):That's right, even though you taking it out of context.
I replied by citing this text from Paul in Romans 2:StanJ said:Paul is referring to the Judgment of Israel in Romans 2 not the judgement or punishment of individuals.
We should be able to do this. Can we please stop with:I agree. Can we all agree to have a civil conversation about what the Bible actually says.
I know. That is my position and it proves eternal torture to be wrong.
Sure there are:
"For the wages of sin is death....."
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"
The defenders of eternal torment deal with these texts by either:
1. Redefining words like "death" and "destroy" to mean "preserve forever in a fully conscious state" - this is to take the concept of "death" and basically morph it to mean its opposite;
2. Arbitrarily (i.e. without supporting justification) assuming that such words are restricted in their scope of application. Thus, "the wages of sin is death" becomes "the wages of sin is death for the body only (and, by implication) eternal life, albeit in torment, for the soul".
Neither option is really very defensible.
Surely I do not need to repeat what has been posted before about Rev 20, Rev 14 and Luke 16. Do I?You ignored the torment in the verses I posted (post #426). And the "forever and ever."
I'm sorry, but the Bible simply does not say what you are claiming. Go to the Bible and search. Find me even ONE verse that says "Every child who is born alive is born spiritually dead."Jesus is the Life (John 14:6). Every child who is born alive (breathing, heart pumping, etc.) is born spiritually dead.
This is not true. It is urgent to share the gospel, since those who perish without the gospel will not have eternal life.- Complacency in sharing the gospel since you believe the wicked will not really suffer
This is not true, as I consider DESTRUCTION to be a very BAD thing.- Complacency in keeping the faith since if you don't, in your mind you will just "cease to exist" - You will be less likely to endure severe persecution such as not being able to buy or sell (Revelation 13:15-17), torture, and beheading (Revelation 20:4) since you don't have a concept of what you will inherit if you fall away from the faith.
Exactly, that is why we believe that the wicked will be destroyed, just as the Bible says.Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord. rsv
The text you provided does not support your assertion. To say that the worm does not die, or that the fire does not go out, does not necessarily mean that the person "gnawed" by worm, or burned by the fire, persist forever.The soul of a person can never be annihilated and neither was the burning bush annihilated by the flames.
Mark 9:47-49
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one will be salted with fire. rsv
That is not what the Bible actually says.Eternal life is happiness with God.
That isn't what the Bible says either.Eternal death is the loss of eternal life/happiness with God.
As a matter of fact, Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that both the body and the soul CAN be destroyed.The soul of a person can never be annihilated and neither was the burning bush annihilated by the flames.
Mark 9:47-49 does not say that there is eternal conscious torment in hell. If you have been paying attention, you will know that in Mark 9:47-49, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 and he did not change what Isaiah said, that the worms are eating corpses, not living souls, and the fire is burning corpses, not tormenting living people.Mark 9:47-49
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one will be salted with fire. rsv
I'm sorry, the Bible simply does not say that evildoers are immortal. If you think that the Bible says this, please show the Chapter and Verse. Destroyed forever means to be destroyed and remain destroyed forever. It does not mean a continuing state of destroying which never results in destruction. That could not be called "Destroyed". If the end of destruction is never reached, then it is not destruction.
But the simple fact is that the Bible never says that evildoers are immortal. The Bible says that the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Those who reject Christ will not receive the Gift of eternal life. They will not receive immortality.
The text you provided does not support your assertion. To say that the worm does not die, or that the fire does not go out, does not necessarily mean that the person "gnawed" by worm, or burned by the fire, persist forever.
This is not complicated. If I have a fire that lasts 10 hours, this certainly does not mean that a piece of paper tossed into that fire will also last for 10 hours!
That is not what the Bible actually says.
That isn't what the Bible says either.
As a matter of fact, Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that both the body and the soul CAN be destroyed.
Mark 9:47-49 does not say that there is eternal conscious torment in hell. If you have been paying attention, you will know that in Mark 9:47-49, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 and he did not change what Isaiah said, that the worms are eating corpses, not living souls, and the fire is burning corpses, not tormenting living people.
What does John 3:16 say in your Bible?
You are so stubborn. The worms are eating corpses, not living people. This is not a picture of eternal conscious torment. This is a picture of maggots eating dead bodies, and fire burning corpses. Why can't you see this?Their worm does not die because their worm is continually feeding upon them.
I understand where you are coming from but this line of argument gets you into a bad spot.Their worm does not die because their worm always has something to feed upon.
Let me begin by making it clear: I have not checked whether this poster answered your question. But I can speak to the fact that I have repeatedly asked clear, well-posed questions that simply have not been answered by supporters of eternal torment.Why didn't you answer?
That's it. If this were an honest discussion and an honest attempt to discover the truth, they would answer.Let me begin by making it clear: I have not checked whether this poster answered your question. But I can speak to the fact that I have repeatedly asked clear, well-posed questions that simply have not been answered by supporters of eternal torment.
This is not an opinion; it is a fact as the transcript of this and other threads will show. In responsible, adult debate, this evasion strategy is entirely unacceptable and if, repeat if, there were a "debate moderator" charged with ensuring that proper debate protocol were followed, this sort of thing would never be tolerated.
Note that I am not for a moment criticizing the moderators of this board - they clearly, and very understandably, are not in the business of enforcing proper debate protocol. If they were, they would be busy all the time considering the exceedingly low quality of the debates we see on this board.
No, that's torment, not torture. Torture relates only to the physical.Yes, it is: Luke 16:23-25
Yes, it will be: Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 20:10
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?