Annihilation=No Wrath

BurningBush84 · Sep 13, 2023

What about the spirit mentioned in
Ecclesiastes 12:7 ?

Does the spirit return to God just to get annihilated ?

Or is the spirit returning to God to get judged ??

What's described in Ecclesiastes 12:7 seems like exactly was is described in Luke 16:22-23 and Hebrews 9:27.

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2023

Halbhh said:
The beast and false prophet might be demonic possession, though that's uncertain. In any case, they will be added to "the devil and his angels" who also suffer the same fate, as will all who willingly worshipped the beast (it seems this isn't the same level of evil as just ordinary evils, so it obtains a special punishment, though it's not entirely clear that such humans in that category will have immortality as do the devil and his angels, but the humans that worshipped the beast might (or might not) simply suffer longer before being destroyed than other humans doing more ordinary sins without repentance, but nevertheless in either case (eternal torment or perishing in the second death, either way), the smoke of their torment will go up forever, like a permanent sign of the end of evil).

The lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death twice.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

But not one vs. says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies in fact just the opposite.

Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If there is no more death after Rev 21:4 then this group does not die.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:15
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

No more death after Rev 21:4 and last chapter there are still unjust, filthy, dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolators, and liars outside the new Jerusalem.

Halbhh · Sep 14, 2023

Der Alte said:
The lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death twice.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
But not one vs. says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies in fact just the opposite.

Revelation 20:10

(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:4

(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:8

(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If there is no more death after Rev 21:4 then this group does not die.

Revelation 22:11

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelation 22:15

(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
No more death after Rev 21:4 and last chapter there are still unjust, filthy, dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolators, and liars outside the new Jerusalem.

It might help to realize I've relied on every verse (all you quoted and many more), and without them I'd not have a full picture....

Therefore, the second death that happens in the lake of fire to human souls will be the last of death, forever.

Death itself will end after that 'second death' happens, as symbolically communicated here that 'death' itself (a process instead of a person or thing or object) is to be destroyed forever/ended in the Lake of Fire also!

We know this certainly doesn't mean that death itself continues to exist unchanged there after being destroyed. It will cease to exist forever, just like the human souls destroyed there also.

The Lake of Fire destroys and kills:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

-- Christ the Lord, Matthew chapter 10

So, after that is accomplished, there will be no more death anywhere, forever. None in heaven will ever perish...

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2023

Halbhh said:
***
The Lake of Fire destroys and kills:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
-- Christ the Lord, Matthew chapter 10
So, after that is accomplished, there will be no more death anywhere, forever. None in heaven will ever perish...

I do not see where you have addressed the vss. I posted. And I have already addressed this vs. What God created He can certainly destroy but I do not know of any vs, which states that God has or will destroy even one soul in hell. Please see my previous post.

Halbhh · Sep 15, 2023

Der Alte said:
I do not see where you have addressed the vss. I posted. And I have already addressed this vs. What God created He can certainly destroy but I do not know of any vs, which states that God has or will destroy even one soul in hell. Please see my previous post.

I directly talked about those particular passages from Revelation 20 and 21 (and not just those but another related verse also) in the very posts from me to you to which you have responded. For example, one part was in POST #420 (from me to you) --> I spoke specifically about the certain human souls in question you raised: A) the beast, B) the false prophet, and also C) every human that worships the beast also) and their punishments above in the posts to you. And also I spoke about how for all human souls otherwise they will be destroyed in the "second death" that "kills the soul" and "destroys body and soul".

Here's a key thing to know: I believe what Christ said.

So, therefore I don't overlook what Christ said of course. My understanding is one that fits all the verses (not just 5 verses that can fit some particular doctrine, but instead I have a understanding based on all 30 or so verses).

BurningBush84 · Sep 15, 2023

"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us".

Der Alte · Sep 15, 2023

Halbhh said:
The beast and false prophet might be demonic possession, though that's uncertain. In any case, they will be added to "the devil and his angels" who also suffer the same fate, as will all who willingly worshipped the beast (it seems this isn't the same level of evil as just ordinary evils, so it obtains a special punishment, though it's not entirely clear that such humans in that category will have immortality as do the devil and his angels, but the humans that worshipped the beast might (or might not) simply suffer longer before being destroyed than other humans doing more ordinary sins without repentance, but nevertheless in either case (eternal torment or perishing in the second death, either way), the smoke of their torment will go up forever, like a permanent sign of the end of evil).

What would have been the purpose when the angel said "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name?" People who are going to perish could not care less how long the smoke goes up. And the angel did not say "...they have no rest day nor night ""until there is no more day and night".

Halbhh · Sep 15, 2023

Der Alte said:
What would have been the purpose when the angel said "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name?"

nevertheless in either case -- eternal torment or perishing in the second death, either way -- "the smoke of their torment will go up forever" -- which is a permanent sign of the end of evil.

Evil will have been ended forever, to never again reign over any part of God's kingdom.

We are told this so that we can understand that evil will never again reign over part of God's kingdom/created world for us, his children.

Der Alte · Sep 15, 2023

Halbhh said:
nevertheless in either case -- eternal torment or perishing in the second death, either way -- "the smoke of their torment will go up forever" -- which is a permanent sign of the end of evil.

Evil will have been ended forever, to never again reign over any part of God's kingdom.

We are told this so that we can understand that evil will never again reign over part of God's kingdom/created world for us, his children.

.. O
\/| |\/

Aaron112 · Sep 16, 2023

Halbhh said:
we learn by really listening to Christ

part tangent, part footnote: Did not the Scribes and Pharisees listen to Jesus,
the ones who opposed Him,
and they did not learn ?
Did not the very chosen messengers of Yahweh, the apostles, with Jesus, listen to Jesus, and they did not learn when they listened ? Instead , were they not astonished, and confused or questioning, or silent without understanding ? And they certainly listened.

Aaron112 · Sep 17, 2023

BurningBush84 said:
I understand your point , but fire is fire. "....send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.". Luke 16:24

My guess is with Hades , Satan and his angels/demons are not in agony yet. They are probably torturing the souls who are in the prison (Hades).

For other research when God Permits, the thought that people who are in the grave can see or talk to others is a very popular fairy tale, likely originating in babylon long before the first century.

BurningBush84 · Sep 17, 2023

Aaron112 said:
For other research when God Permits, the thought that people who are in the grave can see or talk to others is a very popular fairy tale, likely originating in babylon long before the first century.

Jesus cannot lie

Halbhh · Sep 18, 2023

Aaron112 said:
part tangent, part footnote: Did not the Scribes and Pharisees listen to Jesus,
the ones who opposed Him,
and they did not learn ?
Did not the very chosen messengers of Yahweh, the apostles, with Jesus, listen to Jesus, and they did not learn when they listened ? Instead , were they not astonished, and confused or questioning, or silent without understanding ? And they certainly listened.

Of course we know that many scribes and Pharisees did not hear Him with 'ears that hear', but some did (a few), and also that the apostles generally did in time (though 1 came very short). It is so helpful to read through the gospels, and we notice how the apostles were challenged to really listen well, to hear ('ears that hear' instead of merely 'listening' (that isn't really listening) without hearing), and thus understand, and that same need is present in all of us it seems.

Aaron112 · Sep 18, 2023

Halbhh said:
Of course we know that many scribes and Pharisees did not hear Him with 'ears that hear', but some did (a few), and also that the apostles generally did in time (though 1 came very short). It is so helpful to read through the gospels, and we notice how the apostles were challenged to really listen well, to hear ('ears that hear' instead of merely 'listening' (that isn't really listening) without hearing), and thus understand, and that same need is present in all of us it seems.

....
and then if the Father in Heaven hides something from a man, can that man know it ?
If /when/ the Father in Heaven reveals something to a man, then that man understands it.

Halbhh · Sep 18, 2023

Aaron112 said:
....
and then if the Father in Heaven hides something from a man, can that man know it ?
If /when/ the Father in Heaven reveals something to a man, then that man understands it.

Yes. What is it that you were wanting to talk about then? Is it about free will or related things, such as how Christ clearly (and in many places) gives us commandments -- things we are to do (while He also tells us we cannot bear good fruit except solely that we abide/rely in/on Him (John 15:1-17) -- and so all these instructions/commands He gives to us are all implying we have choices, and can rely on Him or rebel against God. (an example of a basic choice all face many times is whether or not to confess and repent (1rst John 1:8-10))....

It might help here on this to read Mark chapter 4 through fully. Notice how the individuals choose to respond in various ways, and next that over time additional responses and choices happen, until finally after much time outcomes become clear.

JulieB67 · Sep 18, 2023

Der Alte said:
I have addressed this earlier and nobody has responded to my post. Jesus is quoted as saying death 17 times in the NT. He said death when He meant death NOT "everlasting punishment." Matt 25:46

I've answered this many times to you in the past.

You claim when he states death he means death. But then you contradict yourself because you don't believe the "second death" means just that -death. Even though Christ states that's what it is. So again, you're contradicting your own beliefs.

Der Alte · Sep 18, 2023

JulieB67 said:
I've answered this many times to you in the past.
You claim when he states death he means death. But then you contradict yourself because you don't believe the "second death" means just that -death. Even though Christ states that's what it is. So again, you're contradicting your own beliefs.

You are quoting me out of context.

JulieB67 · Sep 19, 2023

Der Alte said:
You are quoting me out of context.

If you think that's the case, answer me this -Does Christ mean "death" when he calls the Lake of Fire the second death? And I don't mean a pasted answer that you always paste like this,

The lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death twice.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
But not one vs. says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies in fact just the opposite.

A simple answer to a simple question, does Christ mean "death" in this instance? It should be a simple yes or no to this question. You either believe he means "death" or he doesn't.

Aaron112 · Sep 19, 2023

BurningBush84 said:
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us".

Not a reality, sorry.

BurningBush84 said:
Does the spirit return to God just to get annihilated ?

Or body and soul destroyed ? After resurrection.

BurningBush84 said:
Or is the spirit returning to God to get judged ??

Or each man is resurrected according to God's Word, for eternal life or for judgment .

Der Alte · Sep 19, 2023

JulieB67 said:
If you think that's the case, answer me this -Does Christ mean "death" when he calls the Lake of Fire the second death? And I don't mean a pasted answer that you always paste like this,

A simple answer to a simple question, does Christ mean "death" in this instance? It should be a simple yes or no to this question. You either believe he means "death" or he doesn't.

I gave you a simple answer backed up with scripture. Are you familiar with the concept of quoting "in context"? You are pulling one word out-of-context and trying to make it always mean the same thing in every context.
Can you contradict anything I have previously posted e.g. what you quoted in the previous post.

Revelation 21:4

(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If there is no more death after Rev 21:4 then the groups of people in Rev 21:8 do not die.

Revelation 21:8

(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And in the last chapter, no more salvation, no more death, the groups of people in Rev 22:11 and Rev 22:15 do not die.

Revelation 22:11

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelation 22:15

(15) For without [outside the New Jerusalem] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

This group of people parallels the group in Rev 21:8.

Annihilation=No Wrath

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Everything You say is Life to me

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Everything You say is Life to me

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Everything You say is Life to me

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Everything You say is Life to me

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Everything You say is Life to me

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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