-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Animals don't have FEELINGS!
- Thread starter robnewbold
- Start date
I recently registered for ChristianForums.com, and this thread caught my attention, because I'm, like, a Vegan (go animals!).
I'll just say what I have to say real quick:
There was 17th Century Philosophy by the name René Descartes (you may have heard of him, or perhaps his famous statement "I think, therefore I am"). Descarte was an Ontological Dualist, meaning he believed the human mind (or innate consciousness) was substance which existed seperately from matter. He went as far to say that humans do in fact have a soul.
However, he developed his Cartesian System. In doing that, he makes a statement that almost makes me wonder: He professes that no non-human animals have a soul (he said this around the time of 1640).
Descarte argued that because animals have no souls, they cannot think, feel emotion, of feel pain. *cringe*
Descarte believe it was man's Devine obligation to be the rulers of Nature. To do this, he believed Physiology was the basis mechanics (a name he used for "medicine"). In his study to increase his knowledge of mechanics, he took live animals, then he vivisected them to see their moving inner-parts.
When it was noted that animals he was vivisecting were clearly in pain, Descarte responded by saying the animals were merely programmed to behave as if they were really feeling pain. *cringe again*
Enough of Descarte... (Oh one more thing: While he was the father of Modern Philosophy, most of his metaphysics - i.e. the ones about animals and pain - are rejected.)
Here is some information on other animals...
Insects: Insects have what biologists called a "Cerebral Ganglion" and "Neural Net". While insects (as well as the rest of the Arthropod Phylum) have no central nervous system, their Neural Net is about as close as they can get to one. Insects lack the proper structures that would allow them to feel pain, in fact insects have no cognitive abilities at all. While they cant feel pain, its still not nice to kill them. The reason why biologists speculate that they dont feel pain is due to the fact that they dont behave in a manner that would be construed as symptoms of pain (although it isnt known with 100% certainty, a few telltale signs such as losing a limb without noticing its gone insinuates that the critters cant feel pain). While they will run away if something is trying to eat them, that is not a definite sign that insects feel pain, its just a life-preserving mechanism (again, that's not a definite sign that the insects value their own lives or well-being). Most biologists think of insects as little minature machines which behave in pre-programmed ways, there are a lot of experiments (which are humane by the way) to support this view.
Mammals: Yes, mammals do share a few common characteristics. One of which is the ability to feel pain. Regardless of having a soul, all mammals (assuming their brains have developed the proper structures) are able to feel pain. Whether or not all mammals are self-aware is a different story (we know Orangutans and Chimpanzees are self-aware by the way they respond to mirrors, however Gorillas respond to mirrors in a way that it seems they dont know that they are looking at themselves).
Fish, Reptiles, and Amphibians: The brains of Fish, Reptiles, and Amphibians are actually remarkably similar. It is believed that these animals can feel pain, although they have very primitive brains. The reason why is because pain is a low-level brain function, its not the same as high-level brain functions such as cognition and strategizing. Jellyfish on the otherhand are not of the same Order, they do not have a centralized nervous system, however they do have a neural net and glanglion tissue, its not thought that Jellyfish feel pain.
Plants: They dont feel pain.
I hope this post has been helpful
Yeah! First post!
I'll just say what I have to say real quick:
There was 17th Century Philosophy by the name René Descartes (you may have heard of him, or perhaps his famous statement "I think, therefore I am"). Descarte was an Ontological Dualist, meaning he believed the human mind (or innate consciousness) was substance which existed seperately from matter. He went as far to say that humans do in fact have a soul.
However, he developed his Cartesian System. In doing that, he makes a statement that almost makes me wonder: He professes that no non-human animals have a soul (he said this around the time of 1640).
Descarte argued that because animals have no souls, they cannot think, feel emotion, of feel pain. *cringe*
Descarte believe it was man's Devine obligation to be the rulers of Nature. To do this, he believed Physiology was the basis mechanics (a name he used for "medicine"). In his study to increase his knowledge of mechanics, he took live animals, then he vivisected them to see their moving inner-parts.
When it was noted that animals he was vivisecting were clearly in pain, Descarte responded by saying the animals were merely programmed to behave as if they were really feeling pain. *cringe again*
Enough of Descarte... (Oh one more thing: While he was the father of Modern Philosophy, most of his metaphysics - i.e. the ones about animals and pain - are rejected.)
Here is some information on other animals...
Insects: Insects have what biologists called a "Cerebral Ganglion" and "Neural Net". While insects (as well as the rest of the Arthropod Phylum) have no central nervous system, their Neural Net is about as close as they can get to one. Insects lack the proper structures that would allow them to feel pain, in fact insects have no cognitive abilities at all. While they cant feel pain, its still not nice to kill them. The reason why biologists speculate that they dont feel pain is due to the fact that they dont behave in a manner that would be construed as symptoms of pain (although it isnt known with 100% certainty, a few telltale signs such as losing a limb without noticing its gone insinuates that the critters cant feel pain). While they will run away if something is trying to eat them, that is not a definite sign that insects feel pain, its just a life-preserving mechanism (again, that's not a definite sign that the insects value their own lives or well-being). Most biologists think of insects as little minature machines which behave in pre-programmed ways, there are a lot of experiments (which are humane by the way) to support this view.
Mammals: Yes, mammals do share a few common characteristics. One of which is the ability to feel pain. Regardless of having a soul, all mammals (assuming their brains have developed the proper structures) are able to feel pain. Whether or not all mammals are self-aware is a different story (we know Orangutans and Chimpanzees are self-aware by the way they respond to mirrors, however Gorillas respond to mirrors in a way that it seems they dont know that they are looking at themselves).
Fish, Reptiles, and Amphibians: The brains of Fish, Reptiles, and Amphibians are actually remarkably similar. It is believed that these animals can feel pain, although they have very primitive brains. The reason why is because pain is a low-level brain function, its not the same as high-level brain functions such as cognition and strategizing. Jellyfish on the otherhand are not of the same Order, they do not have a centralized nervous system, however they do have a neural net and glanglion tissue, its not thought that Jellyfish feel pain.
Plants: They dont feel pain.
I hope this post has been helpful
Yeah! First post!
Upvote
0
It's funny how someone wants Bible verses to actually prove something true.
Anyway, all thoughout the animal kingdom animals have emotions. Hell, hasn't anyone ever read about elephants? They're very emotional beings that mourn their own dead.
Anyway, all thoughout the animal kingdom animals have emotions. Hell, hasn't anyone ever read about elephants? They're very emotional beings that mourn their own dead.
Upvote
0
InnerPhyre
Well-Known Member
Dolphins and Chimps have been shown to be self-aware. I fail to see how that makes humans less special.
Upvote
0
I don't see how humans are special at all. I rid myself of the "special" label in fear that it would take over my ego and destroy the good morals I have. I am equal to any other animal and it's my duty to help protect them.
Upvote
0
Ecclesiastes 3:19
For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
20
All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
21
Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
20
All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
21
Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
Upvote
0
goat37
Skeet, skeet!
I do believe animals have emotions, and what's more...self-awareness and intelligence.
Take the corvids for instance - it is the family of birds that includes crows, ravens, jays, and magpies. They hide food for later use and have a remarkable track record of recovering their cached meals. Blue jays have shown themselves superior to monkeys in problem-solving tests. Jays and other covids frequently use tools, and have actually been seen using twigs and leaves to make tools.
They mate for life, and crows are often seen mobbing hawks or owls that threaten their nests. When a crow cries for help (they have 25 different cries), every crow nearby rushes to its aid.
There are also indications that magpies gather for funerals.
Just because they don't speak a human language or have as large of brains, doesn't mean they don't have feelings, emotions, or intelligence.
Take the corvids for instance - it is the family of birds that includes crows, ravens, jays, and magpies. They hide food for later use and have a remarkable track record of recovering their cached meals. Blue jays have shown themselves superior to monkeys in problem-solving tests. Jays and other covids frequently use tools, and have actually been seen using twigs and leaves to make tools.
They mate for life, and crows are often seen mobbing hawks or owls that threaten their nests. When a crow cries for help (they have 25 different cries), every crow nearby rushes to its aid.
There are also indications that magpies gather for funerals.
Just because they don't speak a human language or have as large of brains, doesn't mean they don't have feelings, emotions, or intelligence.
Upvote
0
InnerPhyre
Well-Known Member
Dolphins have been shown to even have "names" for eachother. Different locutions to which each specific dolphin will respond to.
Upvote
0
Nathan David
Well-Known Member
I don't see feelings as being related to self-awareness. To me it seems like "feelings" are a pretty basic brain function; they motivate an animal to respond to behavior. Self-awareness seems to be a much higher cognitive function.
Upvote
0
Oh, nonsense. It would take more than 1000 pages to answer everything.robnewbold said:
The Bible is not an answer to everything. It just tells you how to live a good life and love Jesus and God and believe in them.
It can even be summarized.
Jesus: I am the son of God, love me and do some other stuff and you will probably go to heaven.
Masses: Okay.
Pharisees: No we will crucify you
Judas: Yeah.
Pontius Pilate: Okay.
Jesus: E-loi, E-loi, la'ma sa-bach'tha-ni?
Pharisees: Yay.
Masses: *Cry*
Peter: I deny you.
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]: Crew!
Peter: I deny you.
Peter: I deny you.
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]: Crew!
Peter: *cries*
Mary: Hey the tomb's empty
Jesus: What's wrong with you people, I'm okay, see?
Masses: Yay.
Disciples: Yay.
Jesus: Okay but I have to go now bye.
Disciples: Okay.
Jesus: *Leaves*.
Does that really look like it has the answer to EVERYTHING?
Upvote
0
The Bible does tell you have to beat a slave and get away with it, though. That's very helpful information!
Upvote
0
So why do they shrink when you kick them?
They must have some negative-sensation... I'd say that was pain.
Well, I hope not... I like picking flowers
Upvote
0
Similar threads
