Animal death before the Fall.

[theFijian]

Is death literal? Is sin? Is seperation from God because of sin literal? Was Jesus' death on the cross, because of sin, literal?

Was God joshing in any parts of the Bible? Or was He dead serious?

This illustrates what i've suspected for a while, the word 'literal' is conflated with 'serious'. When they say "I take the Bible literally" what they really mean is "I take the Bible seriously". Obviously if you don't take the Bible literally then you don't take it seriously *rolls eyes*

 

[theFijian]

Yes. There is a lot going on in Genesis 2 and 3; it isn't just about eating the wrong fruit, and talking animals.

I remain to be convinced.

After the serpent conned Eve, and even persuaded Adam, into eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we see that Eve is pregnant with twins. One is Cain, which is not Adam's son (see Geneses 5 for Adam's genealogy,) and the other is Adam's son Abel/Seth.

Well that's a pretty comprehensive mangling of the text. That Cain and Abel were twins is speculation, Rebekah had twins in Gen 25 and this is presented quite differently to Genesis 4. And for the sake of Pete, Abel and Seth are clearly not the same person as we see in Gen 4:24 - And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth.

So, whose son is Cain? He is the son of satan and Eve, literally. Again, check Genesis 5 and you will notice Cain is not listed as one of Adam's sons, but Cain has his own lineage listed in Chapter 4:16-24. The event that happened in the garden was an attempt at totally polluting the human seed line. That is why God puts enmity between Adam's seed, and the serpent's seed.

Literally this is bilge, you clearly failed to read Gen 4:1 - Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD". Who helped Eve begat Cain? Satan? No, the LORD did. Gen 5 is concerned with the line from Adam to Noah, that is all, therefore since Cain is not in that line he isn't mentioned. Simple.

Is this a Researcher1 sock-puppet?

 

[Chris81]

It seems to me that if you believe there were no animal deaths before the Fall, you guys should all be vegetarians.

 

[elopez]

why WOULD there have been death before the fall? Death and decay, is the enemy, and the antithesis of life, of which was given to all of God's creation. What would have originated any death in any animals? What would have caused it?

Death isn't the antithesis of life, why do you figure that? Natural causes would have been one way the animals died. The other is how I explained in the OP, by eating each other.

 

[elopez]

You may be making a logical flaw. You assume perfection means you do not have the choice to do offenses. Just because Adam had choice to do evil does not mean he was not perfect. In fact, he lost his perfection when he chose to entertain satan (eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil.)

Perfection to you may not be the definition of perfection for God. Moreover, you are not perfect, so you cannot possibly know what perfection is (although you most certainly can have a good idea.) You still haven't answered my previous question: does God create things imperfect?

If you believe God creates things imperfectly, then of course your argument stands. But, if you believe that everything God creates is perfect, and that after that initial creation the maintenance of one's perfection is entirely one's responsibility as a free agent of God, then your argument does not stand at all.

If God created a perfect human, then it is up to that individual to lose or maintain his/her perfection. Adam did not maintain his perfection, as a result the animals became blood-thirsty and carnivorous, and he fell from perfection. This is because we had dominion over the earth - once we sinned plants became poisonous to us, animals became violent, etc. Adam was perfect up to the point chose not to be and disobeyed God.

Only one human maintained His perfection on this planet, and He vindicated the human race by doing so. The only one that didn't lose His title as a Son of God was Christ. Adam lost his title as Son of God, and was demoted to a son of man (since son's of God are perfect)

Now, if you do not believe God makes everything perfectly we can agree to disagree, because I 100% believe God creates everything perfectly as per His perfect deity.

I actually do not assume this, as I said that Adam was not perfect because he gave in to temptation and sinned and did not resist. Adam sinning was the flaw, the desire to gain something in order to better himself, which means he was not perfect. I wasn't saying that it was the mere choice Adam was presented with that made him imperfect, but the wrong choice he made that resulted in his imperfection. Now if Adam were perfect as you claim, then he would have resisted that temptation and would have chosen to eat from the tree of life instead. And again, there is no basis to say that Adam was perfect anyway, not from scripture or logic.

And still, your definition of perfection may not be God's but I certainly don't expect it to be, which is why I think that God alone grasps perfection and that no other being could. And what you mean is that I haven't experienced perfection, but then again neither have you, so you're just as ignorant as I am of the experience. This helps illustrate my coming point.

I did answer that question, you obviously just missed it. I said that God creates things as perfect as they could be. Since God alone grasps perfection, as in, God is the only being that is absolutely perfect, no other being could experience the same perfection as God. Not even His creation. This doesn't mean that the creation is imperfect, just that it is not perfect as God is. I said that I believe first man was created originally innocent, not perfect. So let me ask you a question now. Was Adam created as perfect as God? If not, then how do you define perfection?

So I do not view that God creates things imperfectly and I still see no problem with my argument. I mean you still haven't provided support for the claim that Adam was perfect, not from the Bible or from argumentation. If God created a perfect human, then he would maintain his perfection and would not in the least be won over by sin. There would have been no need to maintain perfection if indeed he already was subjected to it.

See Christ can be claimed as perfect. He resisted sin and overcame it. Adam didn't, which is why he couldn't have been perfect, or else he would have resisted just like Christ did.

 

[brinny]

Death isn't the antithesis of life, why do you figure that? Natural causes would have been one way the animals died. The other is how I explained in the OP, by eating each other.

Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire, as the enemy of God, as it is written. Death IS the antithesis of life. It came into the picture as a resuilt of sin, as did decay, and destruction.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." ~Revelation 20:14

Jesus conquered death, as demonstrated when He rose again. It was an enemy that He was destined to bludgeon.

"O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?" ~I Corinthians 15:55

 

[elopez]

Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire, as the enemy of God, as it is written. Death IS the antithesis of life. It came into the picture as a resuilt of sin, as did decay, and destruction.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." ~Revelation 20:14

Jesus conquered death, as demonstrated when He rose again. It was an enemy that He was destined to bludgeon.

"O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?" ~I Corinthians 15:55

If death is antithetical to life, then why is it though Christ's death is there life for us?

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire, as the enemy of God, as it is written. Death IS the antithesis of life. It came into the picture as a resuilt of sin, as did decay, and destruction.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." ~Revelation 20:14

Jesus conquered death, as demonstrated when He rose again. It was an enemy that He was destined to bludgeon.

"O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?" ~I Corinthians 15:55

If death is antithetical to life, then why is it though Christ's death is there life for us?

Why, as it is written, was death cast into the lake of fire?

Is not death the antithesis of life, the exact opposite?

Why was Jesus' death required by His Father, a holy God? And kindly tell me why this ties into John 3:16.

Thank you.

 

[Chris81]

Acts 10:9-16
On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray.

But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance;

and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground,

and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air.

A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!"

But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean."

Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy."

This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

What God has created is not unholy, and the status of his creation as being good has not changed since the fall. If man began eating meat as a result of the corruption of original sin, it seems likely God would have desired those reborn with indwelling of the Holy Spirit to become vegetarians. I see no message from Christ or any of the apostles of such requirement, instead what we hear from both Peter and Paul is that we are free to eat from really any of God's creation. For God gave us dominion of the earth as his trusted stewards and his creation is good and available to eat necessary to sustain ourselves.

 

[brinny]

God killed the first animal, shedding its blood, in essence, for a sacrifice. The animal/s had to die, for God covered Adam and Eve with its skins.

The question is, when did death begin? When did sin begin? Was death a part of any of God's creation before the fall? And if so, why? From whence did it come?

 

[Chris81]

God killed the first animal, shedding its blood, in essence, for a sacrifice. The animal/s had to die, for God covered Adam and Eve with its skins.

The question is, when did death begin? When did sin begin? Was death a part of any of God's creation before the fall? And if so, why? From whence did it come?

I believe that only man was created with an immortal soul possible for eternal life. Thus in the beginning man was created to live forever but Adam disobeyed God and brought forth the corruption of original sin and the curse of both physical death and spiritual death. Those who faithfully follow God as their Lord and Savior are promised eternal life thus being free of spiritual death. Upon Christ second coming we will be resurrected with an imperishable and incorruptible body that we may live eternally in the new heaven and the new earth.

Animals on the other hand have mortal souls and when they die their soul returns to the ground. I have never seen any scripture that promises eternal life for animals. I believe that all that God has created is good and has always been good. I think animals have always been created to lead temporary lives and we are free to eat them to sustain ourselves.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
God killed the first animal, shedding its blood, in essence, for a sacrifice. The animal/s had to die, for God covered Adam and Eve with its skins.

The question is, when did death begin? When did sin begin? Was death a part of any of God's creation before the fall? And if so, why? From whence did it come?

I believe that only man was created with an immortal soul possible for eternal life. Thus in the beginning man was created to live forever but Adam disobeyed God and brought forth the corruption of original sin and the curse of both physical death and spiritual death. Those who faithfully follow God as their Lord and Savior are promised eternal life thus being free of spiritual death. Upon Christ second coming we will be resurrected with an imperishable and incorruptible body that we may live eternally in the new heaven and the new earth.

Animals on the other hand have mortal souls and when they die their soul returns to the ground. I have never seen any scripture that promises eternal life for animals. I believe that all that God has created is good and has always been good. I think animals have always been created to lead temporary lives and we are free to eat them to sustain ourselves.

When did death of ANY of God's creation begin?

Just as it was in the beginning, thus it shall be so in the restoration. In the new heaven and earth, it is written that there will be animals (just as it was in the beginning). Will there be death in heaven?

 

[Chris81]

When did death of ANY of God's creation begin?

Just as it was in the beginning, thus it shall be so in the restoration. In the new heaven and earth, it is written that there will be animals (just as it was in the beginning). Will there be death in heaven?

I see no reason to believe that there was not any animal deaths in the beginning, before the fall. So in the new earth, I would say yes animal deaths would still exists.

 

[brinny]

I see no reason to believe that there was not any animal deaths in the beginning, before the fall. So in the new earth, I would say yes animal deaths would still exists.

What are you basing that opinion on? It is written that death will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[theFijian]

What are you basing that opinion on? It is written that death will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Odd how you accept that but when it comes to Creation you insist it is 'perfect' when that is not what is written. If you can extrapolate 'perfect' from 'good' what's to stop other things being extrapolated from 'death' or 'lake', or 'fire'?

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
What are you basing that opinion on? It is written that death will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Odd how you accept that but when it comes to Creation you insist it is 'perfect' when that is not what is written. If you can extrapolate 'perfect' from 'good' what's to stop other things being extrapolated from 'death' or 'lake', or 'fire'?

God cannot commune with anything that is not perfect. He CANNOT be in the presence of im-perfection. That is why Jesus was required to bear our sins, and die, in order to, through Him, restore our "communing" with God, "walking" with Him.

He communed with Adam, "walked" with him in a garden. Sin-less-ness IS perfection, through a perfect God. There was no sin before the fall, no death. For sin ushered in death. Death was non-existent until sin entered the picture.

Death will be thrown into the lake of fire, as it is written. Jesus' took the keys of death from the enemy, who held them, and thus imposed "death" on us, and all of creation, at the ushering in of sin.

Death is the enemy of life. It robs and steals. It is not a good thing that God celebrates. He hates all that robs, and steals, and is a lie. Death is not a celebration of anything. It is not a "good" thing, but a curse. It is the very enemy of life. It is the antithesis of it.

 

[theFijian]

God cannot commune with anything that is not perfect. He CANNOT be in the presence of im-perfection. That is why Jesus was required to bear our sins, and die, in order to, through Him, restore our "communing" with God, "walking" with Him.

Ok so what you're now saying is that Christ is imperfect? how does that help your argument? What happened to the 'Lamb without blemish'? Needless to say the Creation account is not described as perfect yet Creationist will unabashedly add to scripture whenever they feel like it.

 

[brinny]

Ok so what you're now saying is that Christ is imperfect? how does that help your argument? needless to say the Creation account is not described as perfect yet Creationist will unabashedly add to scripture whenever they feel like it.

Please respond to the entire post (#116)

None of what i wrote indicates or even hints at Jesus the Christ being im-perfect.

Please respond to the entire post.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Chris81]

What are you basing that opinion on? It is written that death will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Yeah, human death! I see no reference in Revelation of animals being written in the book of life nor is there a reference to them being resurrected or given imperishable bodies. Likewise if all death was truly eliminated there would be nothing for us to eat since plants also live and we obviously kill them when we eat them.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
What are you basing that opinion on? It is written that death will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Yeah, human death! I see no reference in Revelation of animals being written in the book of life nor is there a reference to them being resurrected or given imperishable bodies. Likewise if all death was truly eliminated there would be nothing for us to eat since plants also live and we obviously kill them when we eat them.

Are there different versions of death? Which version/kind of death will/will not be thrown into the lake of fire? And which will be existing in the perfection of God's presence? Is there a form of death that God embraces when all will be perfected in the new heaven and earth, where all old things are passed away and there will be no more tears, for God wipes away all tears? Where is this written?