Animal death before the Fall.

theFijian

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Please respond to the entire post (#116)

None of what i wrote indicates or even hints at Jesus the Christ being im-perfect.

Please respond to the entire post.

Thank you kindly.

When you respond to my earlier questions which you have yet to. If Creation was perfect, why does God not describe it as so? Why is the hebrew word for 'Good' used (carrying the idea of God taking pleasure in what he has made) rather than the word of 'Perfect'? The hebrew word for 'perfect' is used elsewhere in scripture so why not in Genesis 1?
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
Please respond to the entire post (#116)

None of what i wrote indicates or even hints at Jesus the Christ being im-perfect.

Please respond to the entire post.

Thank you kindly.

When you respond to my earlier questions which you have yet to. If Creation was perfect, why does God not describe it as so? Why is the hebrew word for 'Good' used (carrying the idea of God taking pleasure in what he has made) rather than the word of 'Perfect'? The hebrew word for 'perfect' is used elsewhere in scripture so why not in Genesis 1?

Is God not perfect? Would He create anything un-perfect? In reference to the word "good", what did Jesus mean when He said there is none good but the Father?

This exploration of the word "good" should continue, don't you agree? We're just touching the surface, amen?
 
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Chris81

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Are there different versions of death? Which version/kind of death will be thrown into the lake of fire? And which will be existing in the perfection of God's presence? Where is this written?

The entire story of the bible is about God interaction with man working to redeem them from their wicked ways such that they lead righteous lives as servants in Christ. When Christ died he served as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of all mankind such that anyone who believes in him may be saved and experience eternal life in the presence of God. In Genesis we read that man was uniquely created in the image of God. We were set a part from his creation and are the only ones who bear his likeness. We were created with his natural image (an immortal soul), a moral image (we were designed to be good and moral beings), and his political image (we were given dominion as his stewards and caretakers of this earth). So we as humans are the only ones capable of bearing the true image of God, thus our deaths as humans are the only deaths that matter. We have been set a part from the rest of creation and given the opportunity to live eternally with God.
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
Are there different versions of death? Which version/kind of death will be thrown into the lake of fire? And which will be existing in the perfection of God's presence? Where is this written?

The entire story of the bible is about God interaction with man working to redeem them from their wicked ways such that they lead righteous lives as servants in Christ. When Christ died he served as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of all mankind such that anyone who believes in him may be saved and experience eternal life in the presence of God. In Genesis we read that man was uniquely created in the image of God. We were set a part from his creation and are the only ones who bear his likeness. We were created with his natural image (an immortal soul), a moral image (we were designed to be good and moral beings), and his political image (we were given dominion as his stewards and caretakers of this earth). So we as humans are the only ones capable of bearing the true image of God, thus our deaths as humans are the only deaths that matter. We have been set a part from the rest of creation and given the opportunity to live eternally with God.

Man was the only one of God's creation that transgressed against a holy God, and ushered in death and decay of all of God's creation. Jesus died for man because man sinned. None of any part of creation sinned, only man.

Death is a curse. Curses are the antithesis of God and Who He is.
 
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Chris81

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Is God not perfect? Would He create anything un-perfect? In reference to the word "good", what did Jesus mean when He said there is none good but the Father?

This exploration of the word "good" should continue, don't you agree? We're just touching the surface, amen?

Yet did not God create us and are we also not perfect. If God can only create that which is perfect how is it that we now exist or any of his current creation now exists?
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
Is God not perfect? Would He create anything un-perfect? In reference to the word "good", what did Jesus mean when He said there is none good but the Father?

This exploration of the word "good" should continue, don't you agree? We're just touching the surface, amen?

Yet did not God create us and are we also not perfect. If God can only create that which is perfect how is it that we now exist or any of his current creation now exists?

We are not perfect, for we became as filthy rags before a holy God. Only through the covering of the righteousness of His Son, can God look upon us, even now, as Christians. We are filthy sinners, and deserve God's judgement and then some, for it is written, amen?

Getting back to "good", Jesus reserved that description for a holy God, His Father. He said there is none good but the Father. Why did He do this?
 
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Chris81

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Man was the only one of God's creation that transgressed against a holy God, and ushered in death and decay of all of God's creation. Jesus died for man because man sinned. None of any part of creation sinned, only man.

Death is a curse. Curses are the antithesis of God and Who He is.

Except for the part where in Genesis God only specifically gives the curse of death to man for his disobedience against God. Likewise in the garden before the fall, Adam and Eve at the very least still have to kill plants in order to eat.
 
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Chris81

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We are not perfect, for we became as filthy rags before a holy God. Only through the covering of the righteousness of His Son, can God look upon us, even now, as Christians. We are filthy sinners, and deserve God's judgement and then some, for it is written, amen?

Getting back to "good", Jesus reserved that description for a holy God, His Father. He said there is none good but the Father. Why did He do this?

Exactly, we are not perfect yet he created us. Thus God is able to create imperfect beings.
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
Are there different versions of death?

well there is first death and there is second death.

do you think we will have physical bodies in paradise?
Any physical body can die.
Accidents will happen even in paradise.

Death is a curse. It is what Jesus conquered. It will be present in the presence of a perfect, holy God? Tragedy, tears and grief will still be present? Where is this written?
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
We are not perfect, for we became as filthy rags before a holy God. Only through the covering of the righteousness of His Son, can God look upon us, even now, as Christians. We are filthy sinners, and deserve God's judgement and then some, for it is written, amen?

Getting back to "good", Jesus reserved that description for a holy God, His Father. He said there is none good but the Father. Why did He do this?

Exactly, we are not perfect yet he created us. Thus God is able to create imperfect beings.

Imperfection and thus the curse of death, and the proclamation of, from dust thou cameth and to dust thou shalt return, was ushered in at the transgression against God.....sin. Death is part of that curse...the returning to the dust from whence we came.

God does not call imperfect beings good. As Jesus Himself stated there is none good but the Father. For a holy God to call anything "good" indicates a reflection of Him, when all that He created reflected His goodness, His perfection. That perfection, that "goodness", was lost at the onset of sin.
 
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Chris81

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Imperfection and thus the curse of death, and the proclamation of, from dust thou cameth and to dust thou shalt return, was ushered in at the transgression against God.....sin. Death is part of that curse...the returning to the dust from whence we came.

God does not call imperfect beings good. As Jesus Himself stated there is none good but the Father. For a holy God to call anything "good" indicates a reflection of Him, when all that He created reflected His goodness, His perfection. That perfection, that "goodness", was lost at the onset of sin.

So are we not created by God?
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
Imperfection and thus the curse of death, and the proclamation of, from dust thou cameth and to dust thou shalt return, was ushered in at the transgression against God.....sin. Death is part of that curse...the returning to the dust from whence we came.

God does not call imperfect beings good. As Jesus Himself stated there is none good but the Father. For a holy God to call anything "good" indicates a reflection of Him, when all that He created reflected His goodness, His perfection. That perfection, that "goodness", was lost at the onset of sin.

So are we not created by God?

what part of the above would you like me to clarify for you? For in my above post i believe your question is answered. This question has also been addressed in various posts of mine throughout this thread. Nevertheless, I would be more than happy to clarify, if you'd like.
 
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Chris81

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what part of the above would you like me to clarify for you? For in my above post i believe your question is answered. I would be more than happy to clarify, if you'd like.

You have stated repeatedly that God can not create that which is imperfect yet we as imperfect beings exist on this planet. Were we not created by God and is it not evidence that God creates that which is imperfect? Are you claiming that God is no longer acting as the creator and thus none of us can truly claim to be creations of God?
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
what part of the above would you like me to clarify for you? For in my above post i believe your question is answered. I would be more than happy to clarify, if you'd like.

Originally Posted by brinny
Imperfection and thus the curse of death, and the proclamation of, from dust thou cameth and to dust thou shalt return, was ushered in at the transgression against God.....sin. Death is part of that curse...the returning to the dust from whence we came.

God does not call imperfect beings good. As Jesus Himself stated there is none good but the Father. For a holy God to call anything "good" indicates a reflection of Him, when all that He created reflected His goodness, His perfection. That perfection, that "goodness", was lost at the onset of sin.

Originally Posted by Chris81
So are we not created by God?

You have stated repeatedly that God can not create that which is imperfect yet we as imperfect beings exist on this planet. Were we not created by God and is it not evidence that God creates that which is imperfect? Are you claiming that God is no longer acting as the creator and thus none of us can truly claim to be creations of God?

i'm not following where the confusion came in for you with my posts. I was quite clear that God's creation was without corruption, and all that is not of God, at creation. And that sin ushered in all that is the antithesis of Who God is. Thus the curse that was pronounced.

It is written.
 
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brinny

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Yecs generally agree that the death of any living creature did not happen before the Fall. Though I must ask what verse in particular shows that animal death did not occur? Usually I am given Genesis 3:14 or 21, yet what do the yecs in favor of using those verses have to say in consideration of the significance in the naming of the animals?

If you recall God told Adam to name the animals. This is important because it clues us in to what Adam observed prior to the Fall himself. For example, the Hebrew name for “lion” is derived from the root that means, “in the sense of violence.” It is not likely that Adam was referring to the violence with which the lion ate vegetables, since carnivores could not survive off of a sole vegetarian eating habit. The Hebrew name for “eagle” is “to lacerate.” "Hawk" in Hebrew means “unclean bird of prey,” and “owl” means “to wrong, do violence to, treat violently.” Why would the owl need to treat a vegetable in such a way just to feed? It is not like the plant could defend itself or put up much of a struggle.

To say that animal death did not occur prior to the Fall seems to therefore contradict the original Hebrew definition for the name of these animals, which must be accounted for by yecs who use those verses to support the notion of no death before the Fall.

who or what, are yecs?
 
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Chris81

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really? sounds kinda nasty. Like they're being mocked. :eek:

We need some way of identifying all of the various beliefs out their regarding creation. Many people who subscribe to the beliefs of this being a young earth often identify themselves as Young Earth Creationist so I do not see how the term could be deemed offensive.
 
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brinny

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We need some way of identifying all of the various beliefs out their regarding creation. Many people who subscribe to the beliefs of this being a young earth often identify themselves as Young Earth Creationist so I do not see how the term could be deemed offensive.

labels are offensive. It almost appears that those with that belief are mocked in subtle ways, and appears may possibly be unwelcome on this thread.

i don't believe mocking, in any form, has any place on a thread with Christians.
 
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