Animal death before the Fall.

[juvenissun]

That's what I thought your position was

The Hebrew is quite clear God made the animals then rather than bringing ones he had made earlier. What I was interested in though is the way you take the flow of the narrative to show God got the animals skins after Adam and Eve saw they were naked, which contradicted you attempt in earlier discussions to claim the animals were created previously.

Could you explain how is that "clear" in Hebrew?

 

[brinny]

Yecs generally agree that the death of any living creature did not happen before the Fall. Though I must ask what verse in particular shows that animal death did not occur? Usually I am given Genesis 3:14 or 21, yet what do the yecs in favor of using those verses have to say in consideration of the significance in the naming of the animals?

If you recall God told Adam to name the animals. This is important because it clues us in to what Adam observed prior to the Fall himself. For example, the Hebrew name for “lion” is derived from the root that means, “in the sense of violence.” It is not likely that Adam was referring to the violence with which the lion ate vegetables, since carnivores could not survive off of a sole vegetarian eating habit. The Hebrew name for “eagle” is “to lacerate.” "Hawk" in Hebrew means “unclean bird of prey,” and “owl” means “to wrong, do violence to, treat violently.” Why would the owl need to treat a vegetable in such a way just to feed? It is not like the plant could defend itself or put up much of a struggle.

To say that animal death did not occur prior to the Fall seems to therefore contradict the original Hebrew definition for the name of these animals, which must be accounted for by yecs who use those verses to support the notion of no death before the Fall.

why WOULD there have been death before the fall? Death and decay, is the enemy, and the antithesis of life, of which was given to all of God's creation. What would have originated any death in any animals? What would have caused it?

 

[juvenissun]

why WOULD there have been death before the fall? Death and decay, is the enemy, and the antithesis of life, of which was given to all of God's creation. What would have originated any death in any animals? What would have caused it?

 

[theFijian]

Animals die. People ddiiee.
Can you see they are two different words? Thus, two definitions.

Funny how the literal interpretation of something as clear-cut as 'death' is quickly jettisoned once the ad-hocs start piling up and glaring inconsistencies can no longer be denied.

 

[Mallon]

why WOULD there have been death before the fall?

Because, according to Genesis, God had to make a special tree whose fruit had to be eaten to prevent death. Only those animals within the Garden of Eden had access to this tree. It follows that those animals that did not eat from the tree (particularly those outside the Garden) died.

 

[brinny]

Because, according to Genesis, God had to make a special tree whose fruit had to be eaten to prevent death. Only those animals within the Garden of Eden had access to this tree. It follows that those animals that did not eat from the tree (particularly those outside the Garden) died.

and death entered the picture, after God declared His creation perfect, how, and from what would death be originating from? When did death of any of His creation originate, since death is the product, the consequence of corruption? There was corruption before the fall?

 

[Mallon]

and death entered the picture, after God declared His creation perfect, how, and from what would death be originating from?

Evidently, according to Genesis, animals were not created immortal as many assume. Otherwise, what was the purpose for the Tree of Life?

 

[brinny]

Evidently, according to Genesis, animals were not created immortal as many assume. Otherwise, what was the purpose for the Tree of Life?

then they, animals, His creation, was not perfect?

 

[Mallon]

then they, animals, His creation, was not perfect?

Where did God call His creation perfect?

 

[NNSV]

But again, there is no scriptural evidence of first man's perfection or you would have posted it instead of attempting to turn the tables by saying the Bible does not say he was imperfect. It doesn't matter if there is an absence of scripture to suggest otherwise since you are the one claiming that Adam is perfect, and thus the one that should be providing the scripture to support the idea. I would have to ask you to define what you mean by perfect. I believe God creates things as perfect as they can get. For example, God created man perfectly given that He did so with inherit free will. This means that Adam could not have been created any more better than how God created him, however this does not mean that Adam will be absolutely perfect, as in without flaws exactly because of his free will.

Perfect to me means entirely without any flaws or defects. So when I think of God's creation as being perfect I do not imagine perfect in the same sense that God is, since God alone grasps that perfection. Having said that I don't really think it is implicit at all. If Adam were perfect, he would have resisted the temptation to eat the fruit. But he didn't, and that was the flaw, so Adam couldn't have been perfect. I do not view Adam as being perfect but rather originally innocent.

You may be making a logical flaw. You assume perfection means you do not have the choice to do offenses. Just because Adam had choice to do evil does not mean he was not perfect. In fact, he lost his perfection when he chose to entertain satan (eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil.)

Perfection to you may not be the definition of perfection for God. Moreover, you are not perfect, so you cannot possibly know what perfection is (although you most certainly can have a good idea.) You still haven't answered my previous question: does God create things imperfect?

If you believe God creates things imperfectly, then of course your argument stands. But, if you believe that everything God creates is perfect, and that after that initial creation the maintenance of one's perfection is entirely one's responsibility as a free agent of God, then your argument does not stand at all.

If God created a perfect human, then it is up to that individual to lose or maintain his/her perfection. Adam did not maintain his perfection, as a result the animals became blood-thirsty and carnivorous, and he fell from perfection. This is because we had dominion over the earth - once we sinned plants became poisonous to us, animals became violent, etc. Adam was perfect up to the point chose not to be and disobeyed God.

Only one human maintained His perfection on this planet, and He vindicated the human race by doing so. The only one that didn't lose His title as a Son of God was Christ. Adam lost his title as Son of God, and was demoted to a son of man (since son's of God are perfect)

Now, if you do not believe God makes everything perfectly we can agree to disagree, because I 100% believe God creates everything perfectly as per His perfect deity.

 

[brinny]

Where did God call His creation perfect?

After He created, He said all of His creation good. And then rested.

Was any part of what He pronounced "good", "bad"?

Did He create any part of His creation to taste death? Was death in His plan? Is death God's friend? In sync with Him? Something He embraces?

 

[NNSV]

Evidently, according to Genesis, animals were not created immortal as many assume. Otherwise, what was the purpose for the Tree of Life?

Christ was the Tree of Life

Satan was the Tree of knowledge of good and evil

In the bible, human beings are symbolically described as trees.


There was a Tree of Life, because Christ is the Tree (body) of life. Satan is the tree (body) of science of good and evil. Adam entertained satan, not Christ, and believed satan. Hence, "eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil," transgressing universal law of God. It was this event that stripped all things in the earth of its perfect nature (since humans had dominion over the whole earth.)

The tree of life would have always been in the garden of Eden, especially when the world was perfect.

 

[Mallon]

After He created, He said all of His creation good. And then rested.

Right. So He didn't say it was perfect.

Did He create any part of His creation to taste death? Was death in His plan? Is death God's friend? In sync with Him? Something He embraces?

Again, if you don't think animals were created to die, what was the purpose for the Tree of Life? You haven't answered that yet.

Apparently, death isn't so appalling to God, as revealed by the Bible. God loved animal sacrifices and the smell of burnt flesh. We're also told in John 11 that suffering and death exist to display the work of God so that He may be glorified.

 

[brinny]

Right. So He didn't say it was perfect.


Again, if you don't think animals were created to die, what was the purpose for the Tree of Life? You haven't answered that yet.

Apparently, death isn't so appalling to God, as revealed by the Bible. God loved animal sacrifices and the smell of burnt flesh. We're also told in John 11 that suffering and death exist to display the work of God so that He may be glorified.

before the fall, there was no death. It was as it will be when there is a new heaven earth, when death and sin, and the enemies of God are objects of God's wrath, and as it is written there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Death is God's enemy. He gets rid of it. Death is His enemy's plan. That's why the enemy of God tempted Eve from the gitgo, because he knew that death and destruction and decay and seperation from God would ensue. As it is written, he is the father of lies.....and he was deceiving Eve when he said "did God really say..?

 

[theFijian]

before the fall, there was no death. It was as it will be when there is a new heaven earth, when death and sin, and the enemies of God are objects of God's wrath, and as it is written there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Death is God's enemy. He gets rid of it. Death is His enemy's plan. That's why the enemy of God tempted Eve from the gitgo, because he knew that death and destruction and decay and seperation from God would ensue. As it is written, he is the father of lies.....and he was deceiving Eve when he said "did God really say..?

Which leaves he asking, did God really say it was perfect? No he didn't, the word for 'perfect' is not used in the Creation account.

 

[brinny]

Right. So He didn't say it was perfect.


Again, if you don't think animals were created to die, what was the purpose for the Tree of Life? You haven't answered that yet.

Apparently, death isn't so appalling to God, as revealed by the Bible. God loved animal sacrifices and the smell of burnt flesh. We're also told in John 11 that suffering and death exist to display the work of God so that He may be glorified.

Animal sacrifices became necessary. God doesn't "love" them. The animal sacrifices are an indication of how heinous sin is, and thus sacrifices were necessary. They represented the coming of a Saviour, Who would be the Ultimate blood sacrifice.

 

[Mallon]

So what was the point of the Tree of Life (for the fourth time)?

 

[brinny]

Which leaves he asking, did God really say it was perfect? No he didn't, the word for 'perfect' is not used in the Creation account.

It wasn't perfect? What did God mean by "very good"? WAs there im-perfection? Were there "holes" or "flaws" when He pronounced all of creation very good?

God "walked" with Adam in the cool of the day...in a garden. I assume it means having fellowship. God, in His un-changing holy-ness and perfection cannot be in the presence of corruption, sin, and death. It is not in His nature. His walking with Adam indicates perfection...the absence of all that is the antithesis of Who God is.

 

[Papias]

My kid is a very good kid.


He's NOT perfect.


I don't understand why someone would try to add words to their Bible that aren't there. I hope they don't think that they are above God.


Papias

 

[brinny]

My kid is a very good kid.


He's NOT perfect.


I don't understand why someone would try to add words to their Bible that aren't there. I hope they don't think that they are above God.


Papias

Is God perfect?