Angry Men

[mama2one]

Despite whether men are using or even aware of the term, many are probably veering towards MGTOW.

looked up & found on the site:
MGTOW - Men Going Their Own Way - is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: "No". Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a man is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to his own best interests in a world which would rather he didn't.


^ this doesn't sound like how a Christian man would live
nor a happily married man

 

[bèlla]

There is clearly a cultural divide between the "American Dream" and perhaps, the rest of us

The American ideal of success is individualistic and fairly narrow. We’re hierarchical and ‘The Dream’ is Darwin on steroids. If you’re a goal-driven hustler type you’ll fare well.

The United States is extremely focused on wealth, much more so than us.

Capitalism (in our society) rewards doers, risk takers, and those with gifts and talents the majority don’t possess. And we love stories about people overcoming the odds to succeed. I don’t believe most have a sink or swim mentality. But those with the greatest wealth and power do.

While in the US markets, millionaires are no longer enough but have to be (self-made, naturally) billionaires, in Finland, it's enough that the hero is a comfortably middle-class doctor or manager or construction worker; a salaried professional who doesn't need to be the owner of the company.

That’s the hidden side of America most don’t discuss. We’re very class driven. If it was a matter of wealth it wouldn’t matter how he earned it as long as its honest. But we laud position equally so and some are more respectable than others. This is why the hero isn’t the men you described.

If the hero can buy anything and everything to make his life as easy as possible, that is not seen as "manly" but as pampered.

We love convenience and pampering too. Love it!

Okay, so he can fly the heroine for a romantic dinner in Rome with his private jet, but as a billionaire the gesture costs him almost nothing and requires virtually nothing from him, since he has people to arrange everything for him. He has people to clean up after him and make things happen.

In our perspective that’s nice because they’re able to attend to one another without concern. We see hired help as an asset. They’re freeing the two from mundane responsibilities which allows them to focus on more important things.

Businesses around the world employ the same strategy. He’s applying ROI to his home and lifestyle. I do the same and I’m not a man.

 

[MehGuy]

^ this doesn't sound like how a Christian man would live
nor a happily married man

MGTOW is probably not very Christian friendly.. at least from a conservative standpoint. I think most MGTOWs want to avoid marriage.

 

[bèlla]

I also prefer to help others without getting personally involved with them (the check is in the mail).

I have difficulty believing the Lord sanctions your selfishness and supports its continuance. Giving resources without personal involvement for someone with the mindset you describe isn’t giving at all.

If you’re always first in your life and never have to be bothered and choose that reality constantly how is that alright? He doesn’t laud selfishness.

 

[bèlla]

Now we feel the urge to portray fat lonely nerds who live in their mother's basement as wanting to harm our women, lol.

Good grief. ~lol

I would argue our culture has a "masculine" and "feminine" energy shortage.

I can agree with that. There’s a dearth of both.

Sure there is an "incel" problem, but it is one I think always existed, just that in the past these men who are at the bottom of the barrel did not have the means to be heard.

I think that’s true. I don’t believe they sprang up out of nowhere.

The vast majority of men do not have this mindset. Plus I see more and more women jumping into the "female incel" mindset". I do wonder how my generation of women will handle when they are in their late 30s and up.

Unfortunately, the rational notion of choosing the other never occurs to them and they foist their madness on others. If wack-a-doodles would pair up we’d have more peace.

Our society doesn't view fatherhood in a high light. Couple with the fact that we teach children to expand beyond their gender roles, men like women want to challenge how they live their lives. Despite whether men are using or even aware of the term, many are probably veering towards MGTOW. Something that will only compound as they get older.

There is a sense of hopelessness with some. I think that’s hidden beneath the rage and frustration. I’ve met several single fathers over the years. Most are very idealistic about women. But that’s blown to bits when they’re dating. Many are shocked to discover how selfish women can be and that they’re not as sacrificial as they believed.

It is what it is. Things change. Growing pains might hurt, but I think it is ultimately a positive thing.

How would you advise someone stuck in the anger loop? Especially one from your generation.

 

[bèlla]

^ this doesn't sound like how a Christian man would live nor a happily married man

Many are divorced and others never married. I think you’ll find men from varying persuasions who agree with their principles to some degree. Even Christians. They may not admit it aloud or on this site. But there’s some in the lot. I’ve encountered a few.

 

[MehGuy]

Good grief. ~lol

There is something emotionally heightening about the idea of a low class man harming or fondling a woman. The white knighthood in the men boil.

White knights often operate under a hierarchy.

I can agree with that. There’s a dearth of both.

Yep, hence society's need to blow every little emotion men have out of proportion.

I think that’s true. I don’t believe they sprang up out of nowhere.

Yeah, and besides something like legalizing prostitution (and that will probably only help somewhat), I don't think the problem is ever going away.

Unfortunately, the rational notion of choosing the other never occurs to them and they foist their madness on others. If wack-a-doodles would pair up we’d have more peace.

Sadly sometimes choosing the other isn't going to be psychologically fulfilling. A low class man may never be happy with a fat woman, and a low class woman will never be happy with a man who works minimum wage. Sometimes its just better to be single.

How would you advise someone stuck in the anger loop? Especially one from your generation.

Knowledge can help fade anxiety. I think men need to study up on evolutionary psychology. I am not sure why many men seem to be so clueless about what women want. Perhaps me being a sadist has given me a leg up in this regard, since many of this stuff seems intuitive for me. I have heard many men (often in single mother homes) be led down a rabbit hole because the women in their lives claimed they wanted a "nice guy" who often roughly translates to a meek gentleman. Kind of what Ana the Ist was saying a few pages back.

While not a fan of things like the 'PUA" movement. They are a group of men who do seem willing to share things about female attraction no one else in their lives was telling them. Albeit in an unhealthy environment.

We also need much better communication between men and women. Not feminism where women get all the say and men have to work inside that framework. Everyone speak their mind. Be brutally honest, no matter how politically incorrect it is.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

How do you address them in light of your faith?

That's an excellent question. From one angle, I suppose we can apply those various admonitions from the Apostles about "not letting the sun go down on our anger," and so on and so forth. But from another angle, there is such a thing as prophetic passion that one such as myself may have for the values of the Lord, values that have also been passionately expressed (sometimes, shockingly so) by the Prophets of Old on up through John the Baptist, and then, at times, among Jesus and at least a few of His Apostles.

So, I suppose I could occasionally apologize for my cutting outbursts, some of which may not be always seemingly fitting, perhaps like the one I sent your direction here on another thread not so long ago. For that, I apologize.

But for my general passionate temperament that I express, I do not apologize, and it's not my fault that we live in a society and a Modern world regime wherein, because of international and relational political and moral dysfunctions which have changed the social political landscape and acculturated people into an overly democratic mindset which that is so effeminate on one side, yet hard-boiled on the other, liberal, permissive, and raunchy, ........ that same society not only can't discern between someone like me and the likes of a Republican politician but also can no longer stomach the delivery of a John the Baptist style moral discourse. For all of that, I do not apologize.

To you, dear lady, I apologize, and I'll do my best to be more respectful to you, a Christian sister, going forward into the future.

You attribute a portion of their anger to our moral climate. Do you think that’s the ideal response?

At times, yes I do. Just not all the time. Otherwise, people might actually think that I don't empathize or sympathize with their pain, especially when my real targets of rhetoric are demonic in nature and not directly with people [think of me as a kind of Forum 'Bono']:

I’m familiar with raunch culture and related subcultures. I’ve known some interesting people on both sides.

Sure. All people from all walks of life can be interesting. Can be.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

My sense is that this is typically a weak-male desire.

Its a male attitude held to preserve one's diminished sense of masculinity in the face of female achievement that threatens to eclipse one's own.

Most well adjusted men don't have to defend their masculinity, but it's to a woman's advantage to protect their femininity, imhso.

Women can be high achievers without sacrificing their femininity.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I’ve never heard differently from any man.

That’s correct. Digital devices have made it possible for women to consume books no one knows they’re reading. The Christian responses to The 50 Shades phenomenon was the result of hearing many discuss the book. They read it on their Kindle and similar devices.

The authors had to confront some uncomfortable truths. Blaming James doesn’t alter the reality they were devouring romance novels and Amish ones too. The latter are termed ‘bodice rippers’ in the industry.

As you’ve noted, the men they’re reading about were rarely like the ones they dated or married. The idea of Christian women fantasizing (about other men) was a hard pill to swallow for some. But the data and additional evidence (The Magic Mike movie) forced the issue. I worked on the launch team for a 50 Shades rebuttal. That’s how I learned this.

A 50 Shades rebuttal? Like a novella?

That’s the formula.


Truth be told, I’d probably like him. He pursues his goal and makes her his. Maybe its the sense of ownership that resonates.

I always thought of it as a sense of protection...not just from other men, but other kinds of difficulties and uncertainty. It's a trade off.

I find those qualities very alluring. But I can’t say that holds true for all women. Especially those who’ve been abused or mistreated. But in my case that feels real, comforting, and safe.



I encountered this recently from both sexes. One party preached his subduing and the other exhibited it. I thought my head would explode. It was so unnatural. When men embrace this rhetoric their verbiage changes. It becomes flowery and sentimental like a woman’s.

I will say that kind of man is probably more desirable as a fantasy than a reality. I think women gravitate towards those kinds of overly masculine men for both attraction and the sense of security....but it can be problematic if he never really exhibits any sense of vulnerability or need.

I mean, it's my experience at least, that women don't just want to be desired and loved...they want to feel needed as well. When a guy becomes this sort of island unto himself....it can lead to real questions of insecurity in a woman. They begin to question whether or not he really needs her at all, and that becomes a source of self doubt.

Regardless though, I'm glad at least a couple of women get what I'm saying.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I have difficulty believing the Lord sanctions your selfishness and supports its continuance. Giving resources without personal involvement for someone with the mindset you describe isn’t giving at all.

I don't think those who I help through various charities are interested in having 'face time' with me. They have enough problems.

If you’re always first in your life and never have to be bothered and choose that reality constantly how is that alright? He doesn’t laud selfishness.

I've been bothered enough by others in my life. I want to spend my remaining years enjoying myself and my family. I will continue to support my favorite charities however.

Also I believe that God appreciates it when one shores up their own life. If a blind man leads another blind man they will both likely wind up in the ditch.

Sacrificing yourself for another in the context we are talking about is a zero-sum game, if you think about it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I mean, it's my experience at least, that women don't just want to be desired and loved...they want to feel needed as well. When a guy becomes this sort of island unto himself....it can lead to real questions of insecurity in a woman. They begin to question whether or not he really needs her at all, and that becomes a source of self doubt.

I think the greatest "need" a man has regarding a woman (meaning wife and marriage of course) is that the relationship puts sex in it's proper place in his life.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

looked up & found on the site:
MGTOW - Men Going Their Own Way - is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: "No". Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a man is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to his own best interests in a world which would rather he didn't.


^ this doesn't sound like how a Christian man would live
nor a happily married man

I like this MGTOW. I'm a Christian, although not married (long divorced). There is great satisfaction having only to answer to yourself and to God rather than to other people.

 

[Paidiske]

There is clearly a cultural divide between the "American Dream" and perhaps, the rest of us, or at least, between the Nordic egalitarianism I'm a product of. The United States is extremely focused on wealth, much more so than us. We have this concept of lagom, enough, not too much and not too little. The United States is also much more conservative when it comes traditional gender roles and women's role and participation in society. A well-known Finnish foreign correspondent in Washington, D.C., recently published an article about her personal experience as a professional Finnish woman in the United States: "In the States, I'm a man: a Finnish woman realizes that were she an American woman, she would think, talk, and act wholly differently and more like a stereotypical woman."

Like you, the idea of a husband to support me and to be dependent on him and his money and the pocket money he'd give me, would be unthinkable to me. We are a typical Finnish couple: even after decades of marriage, we still keep separate finances. Apparently, less than 30% of American couples keep their money separate, whereas in Finland, less than 15% have joint accounts. Huge cultural difference.

This is very interesting for me to think about. Australia is, I suspect, somewhere between the Nordic experience and the American one (interesting statistic; about 40% of Australian couples keep separate bank accounts); but for me, as a migrant, that experience - of moving between continents, of struggling for personal identity, cultural home and economic survival - has probably shaped my attitudes profoundly. I've watched my parents through that journey; I know that they were stronger as a team than either could have been alone. And I know that surviving something like that is about a lot more than money.

Any job the defeminizes a women should be avoided, imso (in my sexist opinion).

Since femininity is a social construct, I'm not inclined to buy into this line of thinking much. I'd argue that each woman should seek to use her gifts and strengths, and ignore other peoples' ideas of "femininity."

Women can be high achievers without sacrificing their femininity.

Given that for many, even being assertive is seen as being unfeminine, I'm not sure this is true.

As for MGTOW, how Christian men can proclaim "self-ownership" while confessing Christ as Lord does baffle me a bit.

 

[MehGuy]

I am curious about so called "nice guys". Perhaps they are just vanilla men who are unable to grasp how love and rough elements can blend together? Many nice guys I hear sound pretty entitled. They act like a woman is a freak and broken if she likes a man who's a little rough. If she doesn't respond well to his boring kindness and flowers she is the problem and not him. I know when 50 Shades Of Grey came out many men were confused about the attraction. Perhaps there are more masochistic women than sadistic men?

I do find it possible, considering I believe sadistic men ironically have a little feminine hardwiring. Mainly because sadism is an expression of emotional empathy. Most men are probably on the lower end of the empathetic spectrum, while sadistic men are on the high end (albeit they experience empathy differently). All my life I have been quite communicative and emotionally expressive because of it. I can feel people's feelings pretty strongly. Growing up I thought it would be a turn off for many women, yet I've experienced quite the contrary. Women love an emotional man if expressed in a certain way. Even Christin Grey and many men in romance novels seem to be quite open and communicative. Women do like musicians and poets after all.

It is a little deeper than women simply wanting psychopaths (those with low/to no empathy).

 

[FireDragon76]

Men haven't experienced the same kind of liberation in terms of emotional freedom that women have, necessarily. There is still alot of pressure on men emotionally.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am curious about so called "nice guys". Perhaps they are just vanilla men who are unable to grasp how love and rough elements can blend together? Many nice guys I hear sound pretty entitled. They act like a woman is a freak and broken if she likes a man who's a little rough. If she doesn't respond well to his boring kindness and flowers she is the problem and not him. I know when 50 Shades Of Grey came out many men were confused about the attraction. Perhaps there are more masochistic women than sadistic men?

I do find it possible, considering I believe sadistic men ironically have a little feminine hardwiring. Mainly because sadism is an expression of emotional empathy. Most men are probably on the lower end of the empathetic spectrum, while sadistic men are on the high end (albeit they experience empathy differently). All my life I have been quite communicative and emotionally expressive because of it. I can feel people's feelings pretty strongly. Growing up I thought it would be a turn off for many women, yet I've experienced quite the contrary. Women love an emotional man if expressed in a certain way. Even Christin Grey and many men in romance novels seem to be quite open and communicative. Women do like musicians and poets after all.

It is a little deeper than women simply wanting psychopaths (those with low/to no empathy).

I'm a nice guy that thought outside the box and today I am happy enough. Being a nice guy does not have to condemn you to an unhappy life.

50 Shades of Grey is fiction and doesn't represent a healthy relationship. Romantic partners generally aren't into sexual abuse unless they are mentally ill.

 

[MehGuy]

I'm a nice guy that thought outside the box and today I am happy enough. Being a nice guy does not have to condemn you to an unhappy life.

Yeah, as long as you know what you want and where to find the appropriate women.

 

[pc_76]

I have heard about most men being sexually unattractive to women. It's called the 80/20 idea. I'm starting to think there is some truth in it.

 

[MehGuy]

50 Shades of Grey is fiction and doesn't represent a healthy relationship. Romantic partners generally aren't into sexual abuse unless they are mentally ill.

I agree, most women are not into sexual abuse.

They're still allured by Christian Grey's dominate/sadistic qualities.

I'm not trying to argue that women want everything represented in that character.