Angels or Sons of God?

BobRyan

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Well genesis 1-11 is mythology.
Job is fiction.

Not according to New Testament inspired writers.

Paul says "Adam was created first and then Eve" just as the Gen 2 details tell us.

Legal code in Ex 20:11 points to the historic fact of the Gen 2:1-3 seven day week, as the origin.

Christ also affirms the 2 parents of mankind as fact.

In Rom 5 Paul affirm the fact that there was no sin in the world until the Gen 3 event just as Genesis points out.

2 Peter 3 says that denying the fact of the world wide flood in Gen 7 is what was expected of the unbelievers of his day.
 
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SkovandOfMitzae

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Not according to New Testament inspired writers.

Paul says "Adam was created first and then Eve" just as the Gen 2 details tell us.

Legal code in Ex 20:11 points to the historic fact of the Gen 2:1-3 seven day week, as the origin.

Christ also affirms the 2 parents of mankind as fact.

In Rom 5 Paul affirm the fact that there was no sin in the world until the Gen 3 event just as Genesis points out.

2 Peter 3 says that denying the fact of the world wide flood in Gen 7 is what was expected of the unbelievers of his day.
This subject is talked about on some other threads. It’s deeper of a convo then I want to dive into on this thread.
 
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TedT

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No more than God does -- according to Christ in Matt 22 - Angels do not have the biological function of family/marriage/pro-creation. Humans have it ... angels don't.

According to Christ in Matt 22 they don't even do that within their own species ( so then -- God did not create them with that purpose/function) . Much less having that ability to do it with other species.

Matt 22 says that in the resurrection humans are "like the angels" -- the resurrected human form/ability is limited as are the angels not capable of those sorts of family relations.

Wow!!! The verse reads: Matt 22:30 In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven.

No biological function??? They are spirits, spirits who can create bodies for themselves at will and sing to shepherds...where do you get no bodily function from this verse??

The verse is about marriage, not bodily functions!! Please consider that the holy and elect angels are espoused to YHWH - a perfect family relationship - as are the elect but sinful humans! That is why the angels don't marry, they are already betrothed and humans would be too if they weren't sinful!

LIKE THE ANGELS means holy and ready to enter the perfect marriage relationship that they were created to have with their GOD!

Who taught you this stuff anyway... :(
 
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TedT

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There was an assembly of sons of God, not angels, Moses in writing these books could have mentioned messengers, but chose sons of God. This means in God's image and likeness.

...and in the context of Job 38:7 this implies...??
 
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BobRyan

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Wow!!! The verse reads: Matt 22:30 In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven.

No biological function??? They are spirits, spirits who can create bodies for themselves at will and sing to shepherds.

Jesus is the one in Matt 22 saying they do not procreate even with their own species let alone cross-species and that humans in resurrected form will have that same limit. That is the text itself.
 
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BobRyan

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The verse is about marriage, not bodily functions!!

Gen 6 is about marriage and families created via bodily function - of procreation.
Matt 22 says that angels do not have that function and that humans have that same limitation in their resurrected body. -- 2 Cor 5:1-3 says there is a resurrected body - and so does 1 Cor 15 and Christ went to lengths to show that his resurrected body had physical properties such that he asked to eat some fish to prove it.

1 John 3 says our resurrected form will be like Christ's..
 
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SkovandOfMitzae

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Wow!!! The verse reads: Matt 22:30 In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven.

No biological function??? They are spirits, spirits who can create bodies for themselves at will and sing to shepherds...where do you get no bodily function from this verse??

The verse is about marriage, not bodily functions!! Please consider that the holy and elect angels are espoused to YHWH - a perfect family relationship - as are the elect but sinful humans! That is why the angels don't marry, they are already betrothed and humans would be too if they weren't sinful!

LIKE THE ANGELS means holy and ready to enter the perfect marriage relationship that they were created to have with their GOD!

Who taught you this stuff anyway... :(

that’s just one biblical view of the after life. It’s in direct contradiction ( depending on how you interpret it and apply it’s intent ) with some other verses. Such as in these verses that mention death, sex and birth in the new heaven and earth.



Isaiah 65:17-25
New American Standard Bible


New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.
19 I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
20 No longer will there be in it an infant who lives only a few days,
Or an old person who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of a hundred,
And the one who does not reach the age of a hundred
Will be thought accursed.
21 They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will bethe days of My people,
And My chosen ones will fully enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
Or give birth to children for disaster;
For they are the descendants of those blessed by the Lord,
And their descendants with them.

24 It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; while they are still speaking, I will listen. 25 The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm on all My holy mountain,” says the Lord.

so a question is how do you harmonize these verses. You can’t harmonize them if you take them literally. If you think they refer to literal histories. But if you realize that it’s highly symbolic language. It’s a metaphorical narrative. Very poetic. Isaiah 65 is about the post exile hope of the Israelites after getting out of Babylonian captivity.

now we take that understanding and use it to interpret the post roman persecution of Christians in the first century.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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It is a term speaking of belief and obedience.

So it refers to the obedient sons of God in Gen 6 who then chose to marry unbelievers. Even the NT condemns the idea of being unequally joined -- believer to unbeliever.
Genesis 6 sons of God produced violent offspring and shows their nature was lower than the human woman they took. The woman were probably raped.
 
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Davy

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In Genesis 6:2-7 and Job 1:6 and Job 2:1 The sons of God are mentioned and some are sure these are angels. They say it is unfair to say God created other living planets. It is unfair if God did something as important as that, and then did not tell us. But isn't it unfair if the Bible, and it's authors particularly Moses here, could have used the word angels, or messengers, but instead refers to sons of God? Implying they look like God, similar to us?

And Moses could have mentioned demons, angels of death, fallen angels, or evil spirits.

And in Job Satan describes which planet he is from. Why need specify this one?

Hebrews 1 tells us no no angels will be called "son" but they are only ever servants. Outwardly beautiful and inwardly of a servant nature.

Where does Hebrews 1 say no angel is ever called a 'son'? You surely misread that, didn't you?

What Hebrews 1 does... say, or really ask, is for which of the angels did The Father ever say, "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee?" (Hebrews 1:5). That means none of the angels were ever called The 'Son' (capital 'S'). That is a very different title than "sons of God", for all those in Christ now are called "sons of God" (1 John 3:2).

The "sons of God" title is a reference to the heavenly state.

That is why Apostle John recognized there is still some kind of future 'change' coming when Jesus appears, so that we will have the same kind of body He has.

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:35-50 specifically taught, that the resurrection body type is a "spiritual body", NOT a flesh and blood type body.


I wish brethren would open up their Bible in study instead of just believing whatever idea pops into their head.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Where does Hebrews 1 say no angel is ever called a 'son'? You surely misread that, didn't you?

What Hebrews 1 does... say, or really ask, is for which of the angels did The Father ever say, "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee?" (Hebrews 1:5). That means none of the angels were ever called The 'Son' (capital 'S'). That is a very different title than "sons of God", for all those in Christ now are called "sons of God" (1 John 3:2).

The "sons of God" title is a reference to the heavenly state.

That is why Apostle John recognized there is still some kind of future 'change' coming when Jesus appears, so that we will have the same kind of body He has.

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:35-50 specifically taught, that the resurrection body type is a "spiritual body", NOT a flesh and blood type body.


I wish brethren would open up their Bible in study instead of just believing whatever idea pops into their head.
The Son is capitalized because like God not just god, He is the self existent, the "Holy One", or the "One". Sons of God are not angels, not messengers, designed to be servants as distinct from sons and the Son. A father has a relationship with a son different to that of a servant, employee, a lawyer...

I determine that the sons of God are in His image and likeness, various types, with a relational nature, since God is three, and has a face or panim as well as a hand and finger, then relationship is vital to understanding.

There are many foot stools and many sons of God, some of which are called son in a special way, angels don't have. And Isaiah 56:4 mentions the special place of eunuchs over that son title. Jesus was a eunuch by choice.

Angels are God's creations, He is the author, but none of them are called son. Even though Isaiah 9:6 has Him as the Father of Eternity and therefore in this other sense, the Father of the angels of light.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Unless one reads Koine Greek, we can check Hebrews 1 in the YLT vs 1-5
1In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, 2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; 3who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest, 4having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they.

5For to which of the messengers said He ever, ‘My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?’ and again, ‘I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?’

Many of us and many of them will inherit a more excellent name than they, the latter are angels of light.
 
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Davy

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The Son is capitalized because like God not just god, He is the self existent, the "Holy One", or the "One". Sons of God are not angels, not messengers, designed to be servants as distinct from sons and the Son. A father has a relationship with a son different to that of a servant, employee, a lawyer...

Oh, I certainly believe that Lord Jesus is GOD The Son, one of Three Persons in The Godhead, and that He is no angel.

But that has nothing... to do with the Biblical phrase "sons of God". The "sons of God" in the Old Testament Books, like the Book of Job, ARE ANGELS. It is written there they even appear before God's throne in Heaven!

Same thing in Genesis 6, those "sons of God" were ANGELS that left their heavenly habitation and came down and mated with flesh woman which produced the hybrid race of giants which are written of in God's Word.

The "sons of God" phrase used in the Old Testament Books is ALWAYS about the idea of angels.

Only in The New Testament is that same phrase "sons of God" used for those in Christ Jesus. And in Romans 8, Apostle Paul says that even the creation waits for the manifestation of the "sons of God"...

Rom 8:19
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
KJV


Starting at Romans 8:18, Paul is talking about how God placed today's 'creation' in bondage to corruption, and the creation waits for the FUTURE manifestation of the "sons of God". (Greek ktisis for "creature" in the KJV, which actually means the creation). By that Paul is pointing to that "sons of God" title AS A POINTER TO OUR GLORIOUS BODY of the world to come, when Jesus returns!

You are in error, because you are trying to make that "sons of God" phrase means what YOU WANT it to mean, instead of sticking with what God's Word shows.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I prefer sometimes to use the YLT to avoid translation errors.

I have read about the son of God in Job... I do not see why people think they are angels, since Moses could have instead used to term, "messengers". He went so far as to say sons of God, they look like God, and have His likeness, which messengers do not quite have. I stressed the term relationship previously, the relationship is what Hebrews 1 stresses, angels are servants, sons are sons, eunuchs are more special and God has friends He no longer calls servants. John 15:15 Matthew 13:29 Matthew 19:28

For me, it is not what I want but sola scriptura. Avoiding the myths and legends, like the flat Earth...

The creation awaiting us is not described as being our future bodies, where does that come from?

Here is the paragraph from Romans 8:18-25

18For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us; 19for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; 20for to vanity was the creation made subject — not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] — in hope, 21that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; 22for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now. 23And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting — the redemption of our body; 24for in hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for [it]? 25and if what we do not behold we hope for, through continuance we expect [it].

Hebrew 9:11-28
Believers will have glorified bodies, but there is more than that in creation groaning. The Heavenly utensils for worship were in need of cleaning by Jesus' blood as from Hebrews. So far did Adam's dominion and fall reach. Jesus' blood cleans things and also us, for restoration to what Adam had before the fall and twice over at least. So eternal life in perfect bodies in Heaven... and other sons of God should also be released from mortality... After the second coming and as described in the last passages in John's Revelation 21:4...

A representative from each of the other worlds sons of God appeared before God and from Earth, not Adam, but Satan, who tricked Adam out of our dominion. This is why we die and why there is evil under the Sun.
 
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TedT

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You are in error, because you are trying to make that "sons of God" phrase means what YOU WANT it to mean, instead of sticking with what God's Word shows.

You are in error, because you are trying to make that "sons of God" phrase means what YOU WANT it to mean,otins instead of sticking with what I WANT God's Word TO MEAN.

Iow, you are interpreting what you read to fit your preconceived notions as much as he is, sigh.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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When I first read Genesis, I also thought the sons of God were angels, then read Hebrews and thought they can't be angels, so it must be that angels in groups are called sons of God. Later I let that go in favour of Hebrews 1 and Job 1 and 2 and Sola Scriptura.
 
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TedT

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When I first read Genesis, I also thought the sons of God were angels, then read Hebrews and thought they can't be angels, so it must be that angels in groups are called sons of God. Later I let that go in favour of Hebrews 1 and Job 1 and 2 and Sola Scriptura.

For fun, put this in context of the word all in Job 38:7 in conjunction with Romans 1:18-20...
 
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Davy

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I prefer sometimes to use the YLT to avoid translation errors.

I have read about the son of God in Job... I do not see why people think they are angels, since Moses could have instead used to term, "messengers".
....

You're joking right? You don't understand why those "sons of God" in the Book of Job are angels? Have you even read the Book of Job???

Job 1:6-7
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.


7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
KJV


Job 2:1-2
1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.


2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
KJV



What planet do you live on? You mean you don't understand those angels appeared before God's Throne in Heaven along with Satan?
 
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Davy

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You are in error, because you are trying to make that "sons of God" phrase means what YOU WANT it to mean,otins instead of sticking with what I WANT God's Word TO MEAN.

Iow, you are interpreting what you read to fit your preconceived notions as much as he is, sigh.

I stand by the Book of Job, you white-washed wall! What backs your idiotic statement?
 
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